J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

I am fully behind free pads & tampons for ALL PEOPLE WHO MENSTRUATE. Why do you want to exclude anyone from that?

Well? Don’t you think ALL people who menstruate would benefit from advocacy?

I responded to this twice, in detail, in above posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It’s like being born a female and liking pink and expressing femininity is something bad. Like it needs to be purged and erased. Don’t do his to me. Don’t do this to the billions of women who think this way around the world. Women are still inunde el p,aging fields here. Heck we still don’t even have paid maternity leave in the freaking United States! Unlike some other countries. We get no propriety in society at all.

I accept you, trans or whatever you are. I love you. I admire you. I see you. But you must show the same regard to me. And also listen to the points here about how totally unfair it is to compete in our space, when we have struggle for so long to carve out our space, and gain some sense of traction in society.

How can you think trans women DON’T see and feel those same struggles as we do? Do you think they didn’t face struggles of their own growing up in an body they felt wasn’t theirs? That they didn’t face discrimination for who they are? Amazing you think YOUR womanhood is threatened or discounted by theirs.

Okay explain to me then why they don't want cis-women playing trans roles, you can't have it both ways, the struggle is not the same. And how anyone can support Jenner getting Woman of the Year, who is still a republican and before transitioning had never come out and supported LGBTQ issues is beyond me. She should have refused the award and I quote in acceptance speech, "“The hardest part about being a woman is figuring out what to wear.” F$$$ Y$$

Ugh, that just trivializes women. Jenner became a misogynist caricature of what men think women are. No, wearing heels and makeup and getting a boob job won't make you a woman. It is offensive.

Plenty of women choose to express themselves in a “feminine” way by wearing heels, wearing makeup, and getting boob jobs.

The fact that you are focusing on how Caitlin is expressing herself - and not millions of other women who do the exact same thing - says more about you than it does about her. You are singling her out in a bigoted way.

Nope. And in a related point, drag queens are deeply misogynistic - and frequently racist - depictions of womanhood.

OK, disgusting TERF.

Please take your deep-seeded mommy issues to a shrink.

Please explain why you think I have “deep-seeded mommy issues”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

"Because trans women are not actually women. They are men." Oh, yeah. Very nuanced and civil.

So thinking this would be hateful/ anti-trans to you?

Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

According to someone who either does not menstruate or who has not been systemically oppressed due to their menstruation.

Why are you assuming that I don't menstruate?

I didn't assume that. Why didn't you read my post?

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

I am fully behind free pads & tampons for ALL PEOPLE WHO MENSTRUATE. Why do you want to exclude anyone from that?

Well? Don’t you think ALL people who menstruate would benefit from advocacy?

I responded to this twice, in detail, in above posts.

NP, and I've read your responses, and they just don't hold together. You seem to take it as a given that it would be too confusing to advocate for women if you have to account for trans women in the definition, but you don't explain why it would be confusing, or how, or give any examples. And it isn't as obvious as you seem to think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the anti-JKR folks have just resorted to name calling now. TERF and cracker. Got anything better?

(Also you’d be surprised at how much more racially diverse the gender critical movement is than the mainstream wishywashy girl power feminist movement)

Yes, the discussion on the pro-JKR side seems pretty nuanced and civil. The responses are shouts of “you’re hurting people” and “TERF!”. I’m not seeing a lot of substance beyond that.

"Because trans women are not actually women. They are men." Oh, yeah. Very nuanced and civil.

So thinking this would be hateful/ anti-trans to you?

Evidently stating facts is hateful to the science deniers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

So you *could* say “people who menstruate” to cover all of the issues and concerns you mention, but you don’t because you think it’s....too confusing?

I think that people who have specific needs should have those needs specifically advocated for. And I think the general public doesn't have a degree in women and gender studies and yes, has a difficult time understanding all this. Which doesn't mean I don't understand it, but I do understand that when we get SPECIFIC advocacy, it is more effective (ie BLM).

And to be clear, I think that trans men who menstruate have different gynecological needs than women. And when that is not the case, in the beginning of their journey and part of their transition, than they are still, biologically, women who need to have women's healthcare professionals. As they transition, they need to find healthcare that specializes in trans men as there are effects from hormones and surgery that significantly change their health needs.

As I've said repeatedly, this is a ven diagram.

I also think that, unlike you, I'm capable of having a civil and rational conversation without using sarcastic emojis.

“People who menstruate” is not confusing at all. Your specificity excludes people who want to be included. You are creating unnecessary and harmful barriers.

And the eye roll wasn’t sarcastic.

[Anonymous]

I can't think of any reason why the "people who X" formulation takes away from women.

However, anyone who says the words "cotton ceiling" needs to stop talking and not start talking until they stop being a horrible human being.

I guess we all have our line...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow... shelters shouldn’t discriminate? How do you expect to create shelters for battered women and children then? Let their husbands in too?

Do the husbands fall under these categories:
“People who are raped”
“People who are abused”

If not, then don’t worry about it.

Do you really not believe there should be such a thing as a women’s shelter, where women can feel safer being with only other women? Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

So you *could* say “people who menstruate” to cover all of the issues and concerns you mention, but you don’t because you think it’s....too confusing?

I think that people who have specific needs should have those needs specifically advocated for. And I think the general public doesn't have a degree in women and gender studies and yes, has a difficult time understanding all this. Which doesn't mean I don't understand it, but I do understand that when we get SPECIFIC advocacy, it is more effective (ie BLM).

And to be clear, I think that trans men who menstruate have different gynecological needs than women. And when that is not the case, in the beginning of their journey and part of their transition, than they are still, biologically, women who need to have women's healthcare professionals. As they transition, they need to find healthcare that specializes in trans men as there are effects from hormones and surgery that significantly change their health needs.

As I've said repeatedly, this is a ven diagram.

I also think that, unlike you, I'm capable of having a civil and rational conversation without using sarcastic emojis.

“People who menstruate” is not confusing at all. Your specificity excludes people who want to be included. You are creating unnecessary and harmful barriers.

And the eye roll wasn’t sarcastic.

DP. "People who menstruate" isn't confusing but it is dehumanizing and can be insulting. The reason to use the more inclusive language is to be inclusive, not insulting. So maybe more work needs to be done.

Or cis women need to just sit down and accept being insulted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Who is being "systemically oppressed due to their menstruation" in the US in 2020?

You do not know enough about women's issues to be telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/education/2018/08/14/lack-feminine-hygiene-products-keeps-girls-out-school/948313002/

https://www.nursing.upenn.edu/live/news/1545-the-state-of-period-poverty-in-the-us

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/111219-sj-periodequity.pdf

https://time.com/3989966/america-menstrual-crisis/

Great links, and in addition, diseases like PCOS and endometriosis are woefully under researched. I have PCOS and the only solution I’ve ever been given is “Take birth control until you want kids, then hope your pregnancy cures PCOS.” No cure for people who never want kids. Other women are given diabetes medicine as if it’s the same thing, even though a significant % of PCOS Sufferers like myself have no insulin resistance.

One positive of being forced to abandon the word women — if periods are seen as something for males maybe some research money will actually flow our way!

Menstruation is used to oppress women in countries all over the world along with genital mutilation! although, I don't really think this was what Rowling was getting at, but I think being pro-women does not mean anti-trans and support what she was trying to say!

I'm sure all "people who menstruate" and "people at risk of genital mutilation" (including many here in the US!) would all benefit from inclusive advocacy.

Listen, I'm sure you're going to be particularly displeased by this response but I believe that this specific advocacy is actually in trans women's best interest. Trans women have SPECIFIC things that need to be advocated for. For example, trans women need to be clear with their doctors about their history because they have prostates and trans women are at a high risk of prostate cancer going undiagnosed if they do not communicate clearly their medical history.

Trans men can present as pregnant or skip ovarian and cervical cancer screenings for the same reason. The stigma towards trans women that results in them being sexually assaulted at higher rates deserves to be addressed, specifically.

Trans women do not get periods at age 12. They do not have get pregnant, they do not get cramps, endometriosis, PCOS, TSS, ovarian cancer, cervical cancer, yeast infections, HPV and other complications that come from having a period. These are very important events in a teenage girl's life. It is something that women of childbearing age have to be CONSTANTLY aware of as they progress through life, lest they get pregnant and have to take care of a baby when the man walks away leaving them scott free. Your anatomy and genitalia are IMPORTANT in the context of advocating for health and health advocacy.

These teenage girls do not need to have access to hormone therapies, they don't need access to mental health professionals and doctors to guide them through a difficult identity transition. And neither group is doing anything wrong there, but they need DIFFERENT THINGS. And to me, they both deserve dedicated movements designed to advocate for them.

I do not care if a trans woman calls themselves a woman. I will call them she/her and whatever name they have chosen. I will treat them like a woman. I will advocate for trans men and their specific health needs. I will call them him/he and I will treat them like a man. But I am not going to alter language to make it more confusing to the general public and world to advocate for specific health needs. The same language they themselves use to describe their own dysphoria. Because it is a real and tangible difference to be distinguished.

Look, from the perspective of someone who came into this conversation without a set opinion one way or the other, your arguments seem...pretty specious, tbh. Do you honestly believe that including transwomen will make it harder to deal with health and health advocacy issues related to menstruation? Seriously - I don't see what the obstacle here would be. "We should dedicate more funding to research the causes of PCOS - it's a women's rights issue!" "Well, what about transwomen?" "Just because an issue doesn't affect every single woman equally doesn't mean it's not a women's rights issue." That doesn't seem too difficult, honestly.

It really reminds me of the whole "we can't let the children know about homosexuals because it would confuse them!" argument.

Trans women can still have advocates for issues that affect them specifically. So can black women and gay women. It's called intersectionality.

Responses like this make me think I'm expressing myself poorly. But of course its also possible (and frankly fine) that you just disagree.

I think that when we advocate for things like abortion rights and access to feminine hygiene products etc that it is important to define these things as women's issues because they have historically been used to oppress and abuse women. And that historical oppression has led to the gender inequality issues we see today. And I think that when you start saying things like, 'people who menstruate need tampons' it obfuscates the fact that it is women who need them and they need them because there is centuries of oppression that come with how society has viewed periods historically.

Just like 'I don't see color' has been clearly exposed as a way to hide the systemic oppression faced by black people, 'I don't see gender' is a way to hide systemic oppression faced by women.

I passionately believe in intersectionality. Advocating for women, for black women, for gay women, for trans women etc. But trans women have not experienced a set of things that by their very nature have defined and held women back throughout history. And I, frankly, refuse to try to make that less clear through imprecise language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how this debate is only about trans women. Someone posted earlier upthread that no one cares about trans men. It all makes sense in terms of men "invading" a female space - even when they present as women, men still feel they have the right to define women in terms that best suit their agenda. We'd welcome you to the sisterhood with open arms if you weren't so intent on redefining an already occupied space.
Get your own space!

Basic TERFing right here.

Except that it’s not...

Women have had to fight so hard for resources and safe spaces, it is disconcerting to see them disintegrating under the banner of trans inclusion.

Even on this thread it’s now considered exclusionary to say women menstruate or that women bear children and go through menopause. Historically, much of the fight for women’s rights have included oppression directly related to female biological functions. Girls not being able to attend school because of their periods. Child marriage and forced or coerced pregnancy. Maternity care. Sexual violence and rape and the risk of pregnancy. All of these issues are not inclusive of trans women but they very relevant to biological women. Recognizing that reality is not anti-trans. It’s actually the height of misogyny to expect biological women to give up all the progress we’ve made and the safe spaces we’ve created because it might not be inclusive enough or relevant to a trans woman’s experience.

It’s TERF 101. No one is asking women to “give up” anything.

Fine, then sign me up for a TERF card, because I agree with above poster. The name-calling really isn't having the intended effect. It's just a virtue-signal attempt at insulting, but sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

There’s no hysteria. I’m going to continue to refer to the sex that menstruates and female because that’s a fact. I will also continue to refer to these females as women. I will not change based on .6% of the population.

Fine. Be a dick. That is completely your prerogative. Just be prepared to be judged for it.

Judge away. The majority of us in America who share my view don’t give a rats a$$ about your judgment.

[Anonymous]

Whoa 30 pages. Is anyone else tired of all the thought policing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is just so indicative of the liberal circular firing squad.

I am a very liberal very pro LGBTQ advocate.

Do I believe in trans rights to call themselves women/men? Yes.

Do I believe in their right to transition and for advocating for health care coverage for those procedures? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for awareness and help for children and teens struggling with their gender? Yes.

Do I believe in advocating for anti discrimination laws to protect all LGLBTQ people from harm? Yes.

Do I believe in people being able to use whatever bathroom they want? Yes (I know I differ from JKR here).

Will I happily use whatever pronouns a person wants me to use? Yes.

Do I believe that we should stop using specifically gendered language to discuss gendered political issues that have oppressed women for centuries? No.

Do I believe there should be some acknowledgement of the biological differences that result from the biological sex hormones you were born with when it comes to sports? Yes.

Do I think there should be some safe spaces that women who have been violently victimized by men and who are uncomfortable with women in transition should be able to occupy if they would like as victims? Yes.

But you go to war against people like me, an ally who you would rather call a bigot, because of disagreements in nuance.

And this, in a nutshell, is why we lose elections and Trump gets elected. If you disagree by 10 degrees, you are the enemy.

Honey, nobody called you our enemy. You give yourself way too much credit. I deeply disagree with your very limited and narrow definition of feminism but that doesn’t make you my enemy.

+1

The level of HYSTERIA over "people who menstruate" is ridiculous.

There’s no hysteria. I’m going to continue to refer to the sex that menstruates and female because that’s a fact. I will also continue to refer to these females as women. I will not change based on .6% of the population.

Fine. Be a dick. That is completely your prerogative. Just be prepared to be judged for it.

Judge away. The majority of us in America who share my view don’t give a rats a$$ about your judgment.

Just for the record, I am the first person who posted that 'do I believe' list and I have put a lot of thought and effort into my posts to try to be clear and not dismissive of trans people's rights and needs. I am none of the posters who responded above and I think that a lot of the language used on the last two pages on BOTH sides has really diminished the, IMO, fairly civil and quality discussion that has happened in this thread.