That Brock Allen Turner is a dirtbag

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when you are black out drunk you can still be conscious, right? And perhaps even "consenting"? And maybe even if a guy was sheltered and hadn't had much to drink before he might not handle alcohol well and be able to distinguish that the girl is *that* drunk.

It was a drinking party and people drink and hook up at drinking parties. This guy appeared to have been drinking and trying to hook up. Was he somehow more responsible than the women at the drinking at the party? I don't know that he was. Was he looking for a woman that was interested and willing to hook up with him? Yeah, I think that he was...

It is not really known exactly what happened between these two before the assault took place. But at some point it was consensual, even if they were both very drunk. Obviously, when the young woman ceased being aware of what was happening and could no longer stand and was literally falling down drunk....things changed and this guy knew damned well that she was no longer capable of consenting but kept going anyway. Now he's in jail.

He ran when those witnesses walked up on him because he knew he was wrong. I doubt he was really even that drunk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when you are black out drunk you can still be conscious, right? And perhaps even "consenting"? And maybe even if a guy was sheltered and hadn't had much to drink before he might not handle alcohol well and be able to distinguish that the girl is *that* drunk.

Yes but it doesn't matter if she was consenting. Once she became unconscious, he should have stopped.

Agreed, but he'd still be guilty according to the CA law? If I'm understanding it correctly?

And how long was she unconscious? Perhaps they got started with her drunken consent and then she passed out in the act and maybe in his drunken state he didn't notice?

I guess I'm wondering if he was inexperienced with alcohol and girls and maybe didn't know any better? Not that it makes it ok, but I can see that happening with overly sheltered kids.

He was hitting on women at this party before he even came across Emily Doe. I highly doubt he was inexperienced with alcohol or parties.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It can be very confusing for an 18 or 19 year old boy when he is with a girl and they both been drinking heavily in regards to where the line is...especially if he has no explicit conversations with anyone about the exact parameters of what constitutes consent.

In many cases, you are asking a boy whose judgment is impaired to make judgment calls on the amount of impairment of the girl, something that can be very hard for him to do. A boy can be drunk and not realize the girl is as drunk or drunker than he is.

I would expect a kid who gets into Stanford to realize that he should not finger a woman who is unconscious behind a dumpster.

But he was a DRUNK kid who got into Stanford. Brains and rational thought go out the window when you're that drunk. Women can't trust someone like that to care what they're doing.

True fact: I drank a lot of alcohol in college and did not finger any unconscious women behind a dumpster.

True fact: Not everyone has the same intelligence level, emotional maturity, social experience, impulse control, ability to handle alcohol,etc.

True fact; alcohol doesn't spontaneously turn normal healthy people into rapists

+1

As a young girl, I got drunk plenty of times (with groups of people who were also drunk). No man during these times ever tried to rape me. The time I was sexually violated (I won't call it rape because I don't consider it rape, really) was when I was sleeping in bed with my sober then-boyfriend and he started having sex with me - while I was still sleeping.

Alcohol does not a rapist make.

Based on your experiences, what advice will you give your kids about alcohol, sexual violations, and rape?

Not PP but my discussions with my kids about alcohol will be completely separate from my discussions with them about sexual violations and rape because they are two different animals.

If only life's experiences could be so neatly compartmentalized.

You can roll your eyes into the back of your head if you want. It doesn't change the fact that far too many high school and college-aged students, as well as young adults, are engaging in highly risky behavior. Getting extremely drunk and counting on others to look out for you is incredibly unsafe. The PP related her experiences of being drunk and being with other people who were drunk but fortunately no one took advantage of her. What's wrong with being sober and aware? Too many people commenting here want to be free to do whatever they want and hope that others will be responsible.

There is nothing at all wrong with being sober and aware. What is wrong is coming on a thread where people are condemning a rapist and instead explaining that young women should be sober and aware. That decision on your part to choose to focus on those particular facts in this particular context is what is problematic, because, even if true, you're trivializing the real issue and inappropriately shifting the responsibility to the victim.

Suppose you're walking down the street and you see a toddler playing close to the curb. Suddenly a drunk driver swerves off the road and runs over the toddler killing him. The mother screams in pain. You helpfully wander over and say "Hey, so, this is a great reminder that you should keep toddlers from standing too close to the curb." What you said is 100% true, and you're still an asshole. This is similar.

Or watching 3yos who are begging to go in a bear enclosure...

[Anonymous]

http://www.stanforddaily.com/2016/05/26/a-case-against-brock-turners-incarceration/

Saunders Hayes pled for leniency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.stanforddaily.com/2016/05/26/a-case-against-brock-turners-incarceration/

Saunders Hayes pled for leniency.

There are lots of factors in deciding sentencing. Sending first time offenders to prison for long sentences does not rehabilitate them, and may harden them. We talk all the time about America's incarceration problem with too many people in prison, but then get angry at short sentences. We can't make up our minds what we want, fewer people in prison or harsh punishment. And, practically speaking, California's prisons are overfull, there's no room to put him there.

Also the specific facts of this instance do not point to years and years in prison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when you are black out drunk you can still be conscious, right? And perhaps even "consenting"? And maybe even if a guy was sheltered and hadn't had much to drink before he might not handle alcohol well and be able to distinguish that the girl is *that* drunk.

It was a drinking party and people drink and hook up at drinking parties. This guy appeared to have been drinking and trying to hook up. Was he somehow more responsible than the women at the drinking at the party? I don't know that he was. Was he looking for a woman that was interested and willing to hook up with him? Yeah, I think that he was...

It is not really known exactly what happened between these two before the assault took place. But at some point it was consensual, even if they were both very drunk. Obviously, when the young woman ceased being aware of what was happening and could no longer stand and was literally falling down drunk....things changed and this guy knew damned well that she was no longer capable of consenting but kept going anyway. Now he's in jail.

He ran when those witnesses walked up on him because he knew he was wrong. I doubt he was really even that drunk.

I think he was drunk, horny, turned on and his ONS had just passed out. And instead of stopping like any other decent human being would do he sexually assaulted her and he obviously knew that he was assaulting her.

I do not think that it started off as a sexual assault though. I think there was some level of consent from the victim. He did not drag her out of that party kicking and screaming or passed out. She left with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It can be very confusing for an 18 or 19 year old boy when he is with a girl and they both been drinking heavily in regards to where the line is...especially if he has no explicit conversations with anyone about the exact parameters of what constitutes consent.

In many cases, you are asking a boy whose judgment is impaired to make judgment calls on the amount of impairment of the girl, something that can be very hard for him to do. A boy can be drunk and not realize the girl is as drunk or drunker than he is.

I would expect a kid who gets into Stanford to realize that he should not finger a woman who is unconscious behind a dumpster.

But he was a DRUNK kid who got into Stanford. Brains and rational thought go out the window when you're that drunk. Women can't trust someone like that to care what they're doing.

True fact: I drank a lot of alcohol in college and did not finger any unconscious women behind a dumpster.

True fact: Not everyone has the same intelligence level, emotional maturity, social experience, impulse control, ability to handle alcohol,etc.

True fact; alcohol doesn't spontaneously turn normal healthy people into rapists

+1

As a young girl, I got drunk plenty of times (with groups of people who were also drunk). No man during these times ever tried to rape me. The time I was sexually violated (I won't call it rape because I don't consider it rape, really) was when I was sleeping in bed with my sober then-boyfriend and he started having sex with me - while I was still sleeping.

Alcohol does not a rapist make.

Based on your experiences, what advice will you give your kids about alcohol, sexual violations, and rape?

Not PP but my discussions with my kids about alcohol will be completely separate from my discussions with them about sexual violations and rape because they are two different animals.

If only life's experiences could be so neatly compartmentalized.

You can roll your eyes into the back of your head if you want. It doesn't change the fact that far too many high school and college-aged students, as well as young adults, are engaging in highly risky behavior. Getting extremely drunk and counting on others to look out for you is incredibly unsafe. The PP related her experiences of being drunk and being with other people who were drunk but fortunately no one took advantage of her. What's wrong with being sober and aware? Too many people commenting here want to be free to do whatever they want and hope that others will be responsible.

There is nothing at all wrong with being sober and aware. What is wrong is coming on a thread where people are condemning a rapist and instead explaining that young women should be sober and aware. That decision on your part to choose to focus on those particular facts in this particular context is what is problematic, because, even if true, you're trivializing the real issue and inappropriately shifting the responsibility to the victim.

Suppose you're walking down the street and you see a toddler playing close to the curb. Suddenly a drunk driver swerves off the road and runs over the toddler killing him. The mother screams in pain. You helpfully wander over and say "Hey, so, this is a great reminder that you should keep toddlers from standing too close to the curb." What you said is 100% true, and you're still an asshole. This is similar.

Or watching 3yos who are begging to go in a bear enclosure...

Because grown young women need to be watched exactly like toddlers and 3 year olds....

[Anonymous]

I would agree with the "plea for leniency" if he had apologized to the victim and showed any remorse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would agree with the "plea for leniency" if he had apologized to the victim and showed any remorse.

instead they tried to make HIM look like the victim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reeeeeally hope the sex registry will make up for the lack of jail time.

This fucker should continue to pay for this for a long time.

His name is all over the internet, as is his picture. Any future employer, landlord, girlfriend, friend who googles him...

I hope this turns out to be true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would agree with the "plea for leniency" if he had apologized to the victim and showed any remorse.

He did apologize. We just don't like his apology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would agree with the "plea for leniency" if he had apologized to the victim and showed any remorse.

He did apologize. We just don't like his apology.

He did?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you saying he was drunk so he should be excused, how many of you have raped another human while drunk? I'm gonna guess NONE.

Some of the PPs may be saying that. I'm saying he may have thought he was having (unromantic) consensual sex with a stranger met a party.

The fact that he said he was not guilty and is appealing makes him look unremorseful. Or that he believes that he is innocent. He's not, because by definition any sex with a drunk girl is rape.

Its still trivializing what he did to suggest it was rape by definition or that he had anything to be confused about. She was passed out behind a dumpster. Anyone who attempted to think about the question even slightly would come to the conclusion that most women do not in fact want to be fingered while unconscious behind a dumpster.

There are some legitimately hard questions about consent. (For example, what sort of consent is needed for someone in a long term loving relationship to initiate sex in the morning with their then-still-sleeping romatic partner?) Fingering an unconscious woman who just fell over behind a dumpster is not a tough case, and its sad we pretend it is.

All of this.

+1. This is the bottom line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would agree with the "plea for leniency" if he had apologized to the victim and showed any remorse.

He did apologize. We just don't like his apology.

And they're appealing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you saying he was drunk so he should be excused, how many of you have raped another human while drunk? I'm gonna guess NONE.

Some of the PPs may be saying that. I'm saying he may have thought he was having (unromantic) consensual sex with a stranger met a party.

The fact that he said he was not guilty and is appealing makes him look unremorseful. Or that he believes that he is innocent. He's not, because by definition any sex with a drunk girl is rape.

Its still trivializing what he did to suggest it was rape by definition or that he had anything to be confused about. She was passed out behind a dumpster. Anyone who attempted to think about the question even slightly would come to the conclusion that most women do not in fact want to be fingered while unconscious behind a dumpster.

There are some legitimately hard questions about consent. (For example, what sort of consent is needed for someone in a long term loving relationship to initiate sex in the morning with their then-still-sleeping romatic partner?) Fingering an unconscious woman who just fell over behind a dumpster is not a tough case, and its sad we pretend it is.

All of this.

+1. This is the bottom line.

Emily Doe was, by all indications, a full grown woman with a full time job and a serious boyfriend - who chose to attend a college drinking party with her little sister. Emily Doe wound up drinking A LOT without realizing that her tolerance level had gone down from her previous "party animal" days at school. She got a lot drunker than she intended to get and wound up hooking up and leaving a party with a 19 year old college guy which was probably not a noble thing to do on her part. The guy was only 19.

Regardless, she did not deserve to have her passed out body violated like that even if she was passed out behind a dumpster. And that guy should be held, and is being held, criminally responsible for what he did to her.