Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:I said Islam granted women the right to vote 1400 years ago.

And all people say is: point to the source where it specifically says that. You brought the quote that describes the process for admitting women from a hostile tribe. Not the process of choosing leaders.

[Anonymous]

PS: Nothing, literally nothing in the article you posted comments on the women's right to vote. It describes opinions of scholars on whether women could or should participate in political activities. For that matter, voting rights for men aren't mentioned anywhere, either.

Additionally, the author discredited himself in the first paragraph when he took the quote that describes the process of admitting women from a hostile tribe into the Muslim fold and tried to sell it as a semblance of voting. That quote has nothing whatsoever to do with voting. Otherwise it wouldn't have the part about swearing about purity, or the part about the leader praying for their forgiveness. It's not about voting. It's about describing that you aren't a threat to Muslims just because you come from a warring tribe.

[Anonymous]

Different PP here.

Frankly, I think it's a great thing that some Muslim writing in 2014 wants to quote other Muslims, who wrote in 1982 and 1986, to support a contention that Islam gives voting rights to both men and women.

This is exactly in keeping with the spirit of "reformation" that many here are calling for Islam and Muslims to undertake. It's also consistent with an idea that Islam's ideas are applicable to all ages and not just limited to the religion's very first days.

However, Muslima is still absolutely wrong, and she's still ridiculous. Muslima is slapping a modern interpretation on bai'ah, which had a very different context 1400 years ago. As Muslima herself has said repeatedly, it's all about the context. Muslima cannot possibly claim that Islam gave women -- or men -- voting rights 1400 years ago based on that passage about baiah which, as another poster pointed out, was originally about dealing with members of warring tribes. Muslima needs to stop posting on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Different PP here.

Frankly, I think it's a great thing that some Muslim writing in 2014 wants to quote other Muslims, who wrote in 1982 and 1986, to support a contention that Islam gives voting rights to both men and women.

This is exactly in keeping with the spirit of "reformation" that many here are calling for Islam and Muslims to undertake. It's also consistent with an idea that Islam's ideas are applicable to all ages and not just limited to the religion's very first days.

However, Muslima is still absolutely wrong, and she's still ridiculous. Muslima is slapping a modern interpretation on bai'ah, which had a very different context 1400 years ago. As Muslima herself has said repeatedly, it's all about the context. Muslima cannot possibly claim that Islam gave women -- or men -- voting rights 1400 years ago based on that passage about baiah which, as another poster pointed out, was originally about dealing with members of warring tribes. Muslima needs to stop posting on DCUM.

Before Muslima twists my words (I've watched her behavior here), it seems wise to be very clear.

- You CAN re-interpret events of 1400 years ago, to add a new, modern interpretation to them that works for your own times.

- You CANNOT insist (as Muslima does) that people who participated in these events 1400 years ago shared your modern interpretation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Different PP here.

Frankly, I think it's a great thing that some Muslim writing in 2014 wants to quote other Muslims, who wrote in 1982 and 1986, to support a contention that Islam gives voting rights to both men and women.

This is exactly in keeping with the spirit of "reformation" that many here are calling for Islam and Muslims to undertake. It's also consistent with an idea that Islam's ideas are applicable to all ages and not just limited to the religion's very first days.

However, Muslima is still absolutely wrong, and she's still ridiculous. Muslima is slapping a modern interpretation on bai'ah, which had a very different context 1400 years ago. As Muslima herself has said repeatedly, it's all about the context. Muslima cannot possibly claim that Islam gave women -- or men -- voting rights 1400 years ago based on that passage about baiah which, as another poster pointed out, was originally about dealing with members of warring tribes. Muslima needs to stop posting on DCUM.

Before Muslima twists my words (I've watched her behavior here), it seems wise to be very clear.

- You CAN re-interpret events of 1400 years ago, to add a new, modern interpretation to them that works for your own times.

- You CANNOT insist (as Muslima does) that people who participated in these events 1400 years ago shared your modern interpretation.

PP again. Which means Islam did NOT give women the right to vote 1400 years ago. Just to be really, really clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:... Muslima needs to stop posting on DCUM.

I have not read all of Muslima's posts, nor do I know enough about Islam to judge the validity of her statements. However, I certainly do NOT believe she needs to stop posting. When she writes something controversial, plenty of people provide their take on the issue. And she makes it obvious when she is the one posting, so those who disagree know immediately to ignore or to be prepared to rebut, as they prefer.

Compared to some who seem to have no other goal than to attack those they disagree with, Muslima clearly has as her main goal the spread of knowledge of Islam. How often she is correct, I already admitted I am not qualified to judge, but I would hate to see her go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... Muslima needs to stop posting on DCUM.

I have not read all of Muslima's posts, nor do I know enough about Islam to judge the validity of her statements. However, I certainly do NOT believe she needs to stop posting. When she writes something controversial, plenty of people provide their take on the issue. And she makes it obvious when she is the one posting, so those who disagree know immediately to ignore or to be prepared to rebut, as they prefer.

Compared to some who seem to have no other goal than to attack those they disagree with, Muslima clearly has as her main goal the spread of knowledge of Islam. How often she is correct, I already admitted I am not qualified to judge, but I would hate to see her go.

You should read Muslima's posts. She's often incorrect, or at least misleading, and that's a problem. Then she gets aggressively unpleasant when people point out her sleights of logic, and that's another problem.

I posted yesterday that I wish DCUM would upgrade its Muslims. I'd welcome a thoughtful Muslim poster, who is careful with facts and words, has a fairly deep knowledge of his/her own religion, and has a maturity level something over age 12. I'd love to ask questions of such a person.

[Anonymous]

PP, you are almost single handedly engaging in a modern day lynching, except you don't have access to a rope and tree so you are doing it online.

As a Muslim woman, I can validate the truth of what Muslima has published thus far in defense of her statement support Islam granted women voting rights over 1400 years ago.

The sura Ash Shura means "consultation" and the verses she quoted are evidence that women had political say, they had the right to offer their oath of allegiance to rulers if they wanted and this was independent of their father or husband making an oath.

You said this oath of allegiance is different from voting. Not necessarily. Ash Shura, the Sura in the Quran, states those who believe in Allah will rely on consultations for deciding any matter that requires a collective opinion. This hints at the importance of democratic decisions. The language does not only refer to males, either. This requirement to come to a decision collectively applies to men and women. This is powerful evidence that women were not excluded from political decision making. Their opinion counted too.

You asked why muslim countries took so long to give Muslim women voting rights. Its a logical question and has a simple answer that any intelligent person should be able to deduce. After the Prophet died, the condition and treatment of women deteriorated, and slowly returned to pre-Islamic times. Muslima tried to explain to you, numerous times, that Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries do not fairly reflect Islamic practice. Your misunderstanding of Islam stems basically from your inability to distinguish Islamic faith from Muslim practice.

Now you want Muslima to be banned from DCUM when you have done nothing but engaged in a modern day, online lynching of her? You follow her from thread to thread. One member of your racist group told her to go back to her country. Yet, you want HER banned?

You represent the ugly, disgusting, loathsome minority with your hatred of Islam and vendetta against religious Muslims. Very few people have come to your defense because your exposed yourself to be a promoter of hate. On the other hand, the reason more people have not come to Muslima's defense is because they recognize you may have a psychiatric disorder and explaining anything to you is pointless when you are on a one-woman-atheist-Islam-hating-racist mission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, you are almost single handedly engaging in a modern day lynching, except you don't have access to a rope and tree so you are doing it online.

As a Muslim woman, I can validate the truth of what Muslima has published thus far in defense of her statement support Islam granted women voting rights over 1400 years ago.

The sura Ash Shura means "consultation" and the verses she quoted are evidence that women had political say, they had the right to offer their oath of allegiance to rulers if they wanted and this was independent of their father or husband making an oath.

You said this oath of allegiance is different from voting. Not necessarily. Ash Shura, the Sura in the Quran, states those who believe in Allah will rely on consultations for deciding any matter that requires a collective opinion. This hints at the importance of democratic decisions. The language does not only refer to males, either. This requirement to come to a decision collectively applies to men and women. This is powerful evidence that women were not excluded from political decision making. Their opinion counted too.

You asked why muslim countries took so long to give Muslim women voting rights. Its a logical question and has a simple answer that any intelligent person should be able to deduce. After the Prophet died, the condition and treatment of women deteriorated, and slowly returned to pre-Islamic times. Muslima tried to explain to you, numerous times, that Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries do not fairly reflect Islamic practice. Your misunderstanding of Islam stems basically from your inability to distinguish Islamic faith from Muslim practice.

Now you want Muslima to be banned from DCUM when you have done nothing but engaged in a modern day, online lynching of her? You follow her from thread to thread. One member of your racist group told her to go back to her country. Yet, you want HER banned?

You represent the ugly, disgusting, loathsome minority with your hatred of Islam and vendetta against religious Muslims. Very few people have come to your defense because your exposed yourself to be a promoter of hate. On the other hand, the reason more people have not come to Muslima's defense is because they recognize you may have a psychiatric disorder and explaining anything to you is pointless when you are on a one-woman-atheist-Islam-hating-racist mission.

Wow. What a hateful post. It says a lot more about you, dear little sidekick, than it says about anybody you are attacking.

There are at least three, and probably 4 or 5, posters here who are sick of Muslima's conversion efforts. Still, nobody here has called for Muslima to be "banned," you just made that up. However, another Muslim -- who is probably you -- repeatedly threatened various non-Muslim posters with removal by the moderator. Once one person, one single time and several threads ago, and who is not me, told Muslima to returned to her country. But on the other side of the scales, let's review the insults you've hurled at people:
- gap-toothed redneck
- bad cook
- husband about to divorce non-Muslim poster
- unemployed and unemployable
- drug-addicted son
- porn-addicted son
- Christian-evalngelical-crusader-Islamophobe.
- miniskirt-wearing granny
- stupid, ignorant, various synonyms for dumb

Looks like most of the bad behavior came straight from you!


The point is, there is no excuse for Muslima to say things like "Islam provides equal rights for women" when she knows very well that this will be misunderstood by Western ears. There is no excuse for Muslima to claim converts exceed immigrants when the facts, provided by you or by her, prove quite the opposite. There is no excuse for Muslima's insulting, abusive behavior whenever anybody questions her. If she wants to clean up her act, I'm sure many people here would welcome her. Same goes for you.

[Anonymous]

PS, good luck in landing that PR job you're seeking! From your performance here, you'll kill at it. Literally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But on the other side of the scales, let's review the insults you've hurled at people:
- gap-toothed redneck
- bad cook
- husband about to divorce non-Muslim poster
- unemployed and unemployable
- drug-addicted son
- porn-addicted son
- Christian-evalngelical-crusader-Islamophobe.
- miniskirt-wearing granny
- stupid, ignorant, various synonyms for dumb

Looks like most of the bad behavior came straight from you!

Plus these other gems from you:

- suffering from a psychiatric disorder
- alcoholic drinker of cosmos
- racist

Time for the moderator to shut this thread down, if only to save anonymous Muslim PP from herself.

[Anonymous]

One more thing. I'm PP above, but I'm not an atheist. You're confusing me with another poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The sura Ash Shura means "consultation" and the verses she quoted are evidence that women had political say, they had the right to offer their oath of allegiance to rulers if they wanted and this was independent of their father or husband making an oath.

You said this oath of allegiance is different from voting. Not necessarily. Ash Shura, the Sura in the Quran, states those who believe in Allah will rely on consultations for deciding any matter that requires a collective opinion. This hints at the importance of democratic decisions. The language does not only refer to males, either. This requirement to come to a decision collectively applies to men and women. This is powerful evidence that women were not excluded from political decision making. Their opinion counted too.

The particular verse she brought does not refer to voting. Just because you say "not necessarily", it doesn't make it so. Yes, the Quran "hints" at the importance of collective decision. That's a very, very far cry from "Islam gave voting rights to women 1400 years ago." It requires a hug leap of faith to say so. But I guess leaping comes naturally to people with faith in something. That's like saying "Islam gave women property rights" when there is absolutely no evidence women did not have these rights prior to its advent.

Anonymous wrote:
You asked why muslim countries took so long to give Muslim women voting rights. Its a logical question and has a simple answer that any intelligent person should be able to deduce. After the Prophet died, the condition and treatment of women deteriorated, and slowly returned to pre-Islamic times. Muslima tried to explain to you, numerous times, that Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries do not fairly reflect Islamic practice. Your misunderstanding of Islam stems basically from your inability to distinguish Islamic faith from Muslim practice.

None of Muslim rulers immediately following Muhammad were chosen democratically. It didn't take quite as long as you said. To be fair, men didn't have much input into these decisions either. Saudi Arabia may not reflect Islamic practice (actually it does reflect Islamic practice if not Islamic letter) but it's not like OTHER Muslim countries rushed to offer suffrage to women (or men).

Anonymous wrote:

Now you want Muslima to be banned from DCUM when you have done nothing but engaged in a modern day, online lynching of her? You follow her from thread to thread. One member of your racist group told her to go back to her country. Yet, you want HER banned?

I'm not the poster who wanted her banned. I think she should stay because she's entertaining.

Anonymous wrote:
You represent the ugly, disgusting, loathsome minority with your hatred of Islam and vendetta against religious Muslims. Very few people have come to your defense because your exposed yourself to be a promoter of hate. On the other hand, the reason more people have not come to Muslima's defense is because they recognize you may have a psychiatric disorder and explaining anything to you is pointless when you are on a one-woman-atheist-Islam-hating-racist mission.

That's you getting crazy again. What do other people have to fear online?

You and Muslima have a problem of not being able to accept that someone finds your arguments lacking and your evidence subpar. You think that because it makes sense to you, it simply MUST make sense to everyone else. But that's not the case. You may very well be pleased with the rights Islam affords to women. That doesn't mean everyone will agree with you, nor does it mean that other people don't have better deals. You will be well advised to leave it there instead of taking all criticism of Islamic package as personal attacks. Islam is like any other philosophy. It has lovely bits and less than lovely bits. You chose to focus, weirdly, on the bits that are less likely to appeal to the Western audience. You could have picked any number of Islamic laws that are unassailable in their wisdom, and used them as a reason you love your religion. Why choose the questionable ones? Shrug.

No one here hates Islam or has a vendetta against anyone. Most people here were indifferent to Islam before you posted, and will remain just as indifferent toward it long after this thread sinks into oblivion. You will never meet anyone from DCUM in real life. It's stupid to have any emotion whatsoever to what amounts to an online character - which everyone of us here is.

[Anonymous]

PS: And your proclivity to childish insults is embarrassing - to your own argument and to the religion you're trying to represent. Most Muslims I know would be embarrassed to hear you speak this way out loud.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Good grief. What are you talking about? How can I not know the state of Muslims when I am a Muslim and how can I not know their level of satisfaction with their Islamic state if I lived in a Muslim country at one time? The better question is, how could you ever know? Are you Muslim? Did you live in a Muslim country before? No? Then sit down and certainly do not speak for Islam or Muslims.

How can I know that? because I know that no person, not even a DCUM poster imbued, apparently, with supernatural powers, can see into the hearts of billions of Muslims. You claimed the vast majority of Muslims are happy. There is no way you, or anyone else, is capable of knowing how the vast majority of people feels.

Anonymous wrote:
Islam is a remarkable and beautiful religion. It does not condone terrorism. It permits self defense. It does promote equality btw men and women, but not your western definition of equality, but an equality that is measured by the value of rights afforded. Different rights can still have equal value.

How much value a right has is a subjective judgment. A particular right can mean the world to me and nothing to you. If you think the collective weight of rights afforded to men and women in Islam is the same (even though the parts are different), that's your opinion. Someone else may have a different calculus of how much any particular right is worth. You may feel one right counterbalances another. That's your opinion. It's not a "fact."

Anonymous wrote:
What do you derive from trashing Islam?

You aren't Islam. But I do derive some pleasure of pointing out your mistakes, and luckily for me, there's no shortage of material there.