Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

Israel stole land to create a Jewish state. Israel refuses to address the problems caused by this. Netanyahu(who is moderate/left of center by Israeli standards) has a position that there will never be a Palestinian state and every country in the Middle East must be kept as a failed state. So now the policy of Israel is to kill all Palestinians.

Israel has no strategic interest in United States and is not an ally. At this point I have seen Israel and have to say it causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity. Why would a country like that have a right to exist? This is like saying Nazi German has a right to exist.

See it’s this kind of extreme hyperbole that make me think your antizionism is actually motivated by antisemitism.

Israel is not Nazi Germany. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a minor conflict comparatively speaking. Even if you take Palestinian estimates at face value (I don’t), at the upper end, 135,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire almost 80-year history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. To put that into perspective for you, that means in 80 years of war (not genocide, war), the conflict has killed about 2% the number Palestinians as the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Assuming fatalities were to continue at the same rate, in order to match the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, the Arab-Israeli conflict would have to continue for another 3,556 YEARS.

135,000 is like half the amount of Iraqi civilians that were killed in the Iraq war. Should America have a right to exist? Do you call it a genocidal state that “causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread, OP!! Also really enjoyed the “in theory” Zionist PP comment above. One thought after reading this entire thing: I (embarrassingly) hadn’t considered that there is a spectrum of what people mean by anti-Zionist. The most extreme (and ok most accurate or literal) definition of antizionism is “destroy Israel.” That has a natural intersection with antisemitism.

That said, I think there are a lot of people struggling with what is happening in Gaza, and dislike the Israeli government, who have adopted the term to mean “the Israeli government is a sh*t show. The entire history of the region is messy and I don’t like it. Ceasefire now. Two state solution sounds great.” You see this play out in the other threads, with many saying that criticizing Israel is not antisemitism, being opposed to colonialism is not antisemitism etc… many using the term aren’t rooting for the destruction of Israel, just like many who cheer for “river to the sea” signs at protests aren’t calling for the destruction of Israel (I’m not trying to get into a debate - I know many are).

Sure, this reflects a lack of understanding of what Zionism actually means. And yes, it’s overly simple and conveniently ignores statements of opinion on how Israel came together as a modern country. Fair. But being opposed to genocide and man made famines is also simple and I think a lot of people just want a shortcut to name that pov. I’ll pick my words more carefully in the future.

Thanks for this thoughtful response to a thread that hasn't always been thoughtful.

For what it's worth, I don't think anti-Zionism means "two-state solution" to most people using the term, and it definitely doesn't register that way to anyone who even remotely thinks of themselves as a Zionist in any way.

Most American Jews who think of themselves as Zionists also want a two-state solution, and at this point most also want a ceasefire in Gaza. The loudest Zionists -- the ones who insist that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism -- make claims and assertions that most of the rest of us don't actually agree with. On the other hand, the loudest anti-Zionists also make claims and assertions that I assume most people who want to stand with Palestinians also don't actually agree with.

I'll stipulate that the feelings of American Jews are not the main problem from this war or from the long history of the Middle East, but since this is an endless DCUM thread mostly about the feelings of American Jews and whether they're legitimate, we may as well keep at it.

A lot of where the confusion between antisemitism (a real thing) and anti-Zionism (also a real thing that does not have to be antisemitism) comes into play is with the loudest, most extreme claims on both sides. Insisting that all American Jews bear full responsibility for Israeli policies is antisemitic and anti-Zionist; most critics of Zionism don't do this, but some do, and when they do, it makes almost all American Jews leery of a movement that welcomes that kind of rhetoric. Insisting that Israel should cease to exist or that every Israeli is a white colonial settler has the same effect. (Likewise, I can only imagine how some of the atrocious things Israeli Knesset members say about Palestinians sound to pro-Palestinian advocates, since they sound atrocious to me, and I'm much more sympathetic to Israel than most pro-Palestinian advocates are.)

I think the many, many legitimate critics of Israel would be more effective in a movement that found ways to welcome liberal Zionists critics of the state's policies, both because it would ultimately fold in more people and because it would be harder to accuse the pro-Palestinian cause of being antisemitic. Look, for instance, at how Zohran Mamdani cross-endorsed with Brad Lander in the NYC mayor's race; obviously that didn't shut up the freakout about Zohran, but it demonstrated a willingness on his part to look past ideological purity on the question, and I know it eased the minds of at least some progressive Jews who might otherwise have bought the (I think false) claims about Mamdani being dangerous to us...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread, OP!! Also really enjoyed the “in theory” Zionist PP comment above. One thought after reading this entire thing: I (embarrassingly) hadn’t considered that there is a spectrum of what people mean by anti-Zionist. The most extreme (and ok most accurate or literal) definition of antizionism is “destroy Israel.” That has a natural intersection with antisemitism.

That said, I think there are a lot of people struggling with what is happening in Gaza, and dislike the Israeli government, who have adopted the term to mean “the Israeli government is a sh*t show. The entire history of the region is messy and I don’t like it. Ceasefire now. Two state solution sounds great.” You see this play out in the other threads, with many saying that criticizing Israel is not antisemitism, being opposed to colonialism is not antisemitism etc… many using the term aren’t rooting for the destruction of Israel, just like many who cheer for “river to the sea” signs at protests aren’t calling for the destruction of Israel (I’m not trying to get into a debate - I know many are).

Sure, this reflects a lack of understanding of what Zionism actually means. And yes, it’s overly simple and conveniently ignores statements of opinion on how Israel came together as a modern country. Fair. But being opposed to genocide and man made famines is also simple and I think a lot of people just want a shortcut to name that pov. I’ll pick my words more carefully in the future.

Thanks for this thoughtful response to a thread that hasn't always been thoughtful.

For what it's worth, I don't think anti-Zionism means "two-state solution" to most people using the term, and it definitely doesn't register that way to anyone who even remotely thinks of themselves as a Zionist in any way.

Most American Jews who think of themselves as Zionists also want a two-state solution, and at this point most also want a ceasefire in Gaza. The loudest Zionists -- the ones who insist that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism -- make claims and assertions that most of the rest of us don't actually agree with. On the other hand, the loudest anti-Zionists also make claims and assertions that I assume most people who want to stand with Palestinians also don't actually agree with.

I'll stipulate that the feelings of American Jews are not the main problem from this war or from the long history of the Middle East, but since this is an endless DCUM thread mostly about the feelings of American Jews and whether they're legitimate, we may as well keep at it.

A lot of where the confusion between antisemitism (a real thing) and anti-Zionism (also a real thing that does not have to be antisemitism) comes into play is with the loudest, most extreme claims on both sides. Insisting that all American Jews bear full responsibility for Israeli policies is antisemitic and anti-Zionist; most critics of Zionism don't do this, but some do, and when they do, it makes almost all American Jews leery of a movement that welcomes that kind of rhetoric. Insisting that Israel should cease to exist or that every Israeli is a white colonial settler has the same effect. (Likewise, I can only imagine how some of the atrocious things Israeli Knesset members say about Palestinians sound to pro-Palestinian advocates, since they sound atrocious to me, and I'm much more sympathetic to Israel than most pro-Palestinian advocates are.)

I think the many, many legitimate critics of Israel would be more effective in a movement that found ways to welcome liberal Zionists critics of the state's policies, both because it would ultimately fold in more people and because it would be harder to accuse the pro-Palestinian cause of being antisemitic. Look, for instance, at how Zohran Mamdani cross-endorsed with Brad Lander in the NYC mayor's race; obviously that didn't shut up the freakout about Zohran, but it demonstrated a willingness on his part to look past ideological purity on the question, and I know it eased the minds of at least some progressive Jews who might otherwise have bought the (I think false) claims about Mamdani being dangerous to us...

I am OP and I agree with pretty much all of this. I do think this is a strawman meant to silence Jews legitimate concerns about antisemitism, though, and I hear it CONSTANTLY: “ones who insist any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.”

I am a Jewish Zionist, raised around other Jewish Zionist. I went to a Jewish Zionist school growing up. I’ve been to Israel many times. I have NEVER and I mean NEVER met anyone who thinks any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It’s just not a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Listen, I didn’t bring up the sixty five laws, YOU did. If you want to argue that I’m wrong about those, be my guest. If you are going to make wild claims you’ve got to back them up with actual evidence, not just vibes.

Do you have literally any evidence that the Israeli government refuses Arab Israelis entry into bomb shelters? I’m sure there are some racist a**holes in Israeli society who discriminate against Arabs but that’s true in every society. That’s not state-sanctioned conduct. In fact, the Israeli government arrests and prosecutes people for trying to deny others entry into bomb shelters: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/police-arrest-3-bat-yam-residents-for-barring-people-from-shelters-during-iran-attacks/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

Israel stole land to create a Jewish state. Israel refuses to address the problems caused by this. Netanyahu(who is moderate/left of center by Israeli standards) has a position that there will never be a Palestinian state and every country in the Middle East must be kept as a failed state. So now the policy of Israel is to kill all Palestinians.

Israel has no strategic interest in United States and is not an ally. At this point I have seen Israel and have to say it causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity. Why would a country like that have a right to exist? This is like saying Nazi German has a right to exist.

See it’s this kind of extreme hyperbole that make me think your antizionism is actually motivated by antisemitism.

Israel is not Nazi Germany. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a minor conflict comparatively speaking. Even if you take Palestinian estimates at face value (I don’t), at the upper end, 135,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire almost 80-year history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. To put that into perspective for you, that means in 80 years of war (not genocide, war), the conflict has killed about 2% the number Palestinians as the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Assuming fatalities were to continue at the same rate, in order to match the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, the Arab-Israeli conflict would have to continue for another 3,556 YEARS.

135,000 is like half the amount of Iraqi civilians that were killed in the Iraq war. Should America have a right to exist? Do you call it a genocidal state that “causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity”?

This is where I have an issue...making comparisons to the holocaust. I don't think you can do that from either perspective. Just because the conflict has supposedly killed only about 2% the number of Palestinians as the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust...that is besides the point and irrelevant IMHO.

The Holocaust happened, and it was atrocious. But I'm quite tired of the "woe is me" harping on the past and any comparisons to the holocaust. I'm Catholic and true historians know that Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust. Sure, they were a majority...but....Catholics were targeted too, as were many other non-Jews.

We live in the present.
IMHO it is not acceptable to kill only 2% of Palestinians NOW by comparing to the millions of Jews killed in the PAST during the holocaust.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

Israel stole land to create a Jewish state. Israel refuses to address the problems caused by this. Netanyahu(who is moderate/left of center by Israeli standards) has a position that there will never be a Palestinian state and every country in the Middle East must be kept as a failed state. So now the policy of Israel is to kill all Palestinians.

Israel has no strategic interest in United States and is not an ally. At this point I have seen Israel and have to say it causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity. Why would a country like that have a right to exist? This is like saying Nazi German has a right to exist.

See it’s this kind of extreme hyperbole that make me think your antizionism is actually motivated by antisemitism.

Israel is not Nazi Germany. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a minor conflict comparatively speaking. Even if you take Palestinian estimates at face value (I don’t), at the upper end, 135,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire almost 80-year history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. To put that into perspective for you, that means in 80 years of war (not genocide, war), the conflict has killed about 2% the number Palestinians as the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Assuming fatalities were to continue at the same rate, in order to match the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust, the Arab-Israeli conflict would have to continue for another 3,556 YEARS.

135,000 is like half the amount of Iraqi civilians that were killed in the Iraq war. Should America have a right to exist? Do you call it a genocidal state that “causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity”?

This is where I have an issue...making comparisons to the holocaust. I don't think you can do that from either perspective. Just because the conflict has supposedly killed only about 2% the number of Palestinians as the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust...that is besides the point and irrelevant IMHO.

The Holocaust happened, and it was atrocious. But I'm quite tired of the "woe is me" harping on the past and any comparisons to the holocaust. I'm Catholic and true historians know that Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust. Sure, they were a majority...but....Catholics were targeted too, as were many other non-Jews.

We live in the present.
IMHO it is not acceptable to kill only 2% of Palestinians NOW by comparing to the millions of Jews killed in the PAST during the holocaust.

You’re literally agreeing with the post you’re responding to. It is saying that comparisons to the holocaust are not apt and should not be made. No one is saying that the war in Gaza is somehow justified because the holocaust killed more people.

Also, FYI, here’s how this whole thing went down. Someone compared Israel to Nazi Germany. A second poster responded that that was ridiculous and offensive because, among other things, the scale of the holocaust was larger by orders of magnitude. You responded, in reference to that poster accurately describing the holocaust: “I'm quite tired of the ‘woe is me’ harping on the past”

[Anonymous]

Israel is ruled by zionists who believe:

1) god* is on their side.
2) they are always in the moral right.
3) they will take all of humanity with them if they “could” lose (cf. Samson Option).
4) their citizens are each worth many factors Palestinians (or Goyim/Gentiles in general).

All of humanity can see very clearly that the Zionist “government” and the IDF are not operating with reason. Or mercy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel is ruled by zionists who believe:

1) god* is on their side.
2) they are always in the moral right.
3) they will take all of humanity with them if they “could” lose (cf. Samson Option).
4) their citizens are each worth many factors Palestinians (or Goyim/Gentiles in general).

Both sides believe this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel is ruled by zionists who believe:

1) god* is on their side.
2) they are always in the moral right.
3) they will take all of humanity with them if they “could” lose (cf. Samson Option).
4) their citizens are each worth many factors Palestinians (or Goyim/Gentiles in general).

All of humanity can see very clearly that the Zionist “government” and the IDF are not operating with reason. Or mercy.

Yeah literally none of that is true. You’ve clearly never met or talked to an Israeli before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread, OP!! Also really enjoyed the “in theory” Zionist PP comment above. One thought after reading this entire thing: I (embarrassingly) hadn’t considered that there is a spectrum of what people mean by anti-Zionist. The most extreme (and ok most accurate or literal) definition of antizionism is “destroy Israel.” That has a natural intersection with antisemitism.

That said, I think there are a lot of people struggling with what is happening in Gaza, and dislike the Israeli government, who have adopted the term to mean “the Israeli government is a sh*t show. The entire history of the region is messy and I don’t like it. Ceasefire now. Two state solution sounds great.” You see this play out in the other threads, with many saying that criticizing Israel is not antisemitism, being opposed to colonialism is not antisemitism etc… many using the term aren’t rooting for the destruction of Israel, just like many who cheer for “river to the sea” signs at protests aren’t calling for the destruction of Israel (I’m not trying to get into a debate - I know many are).

Sure, this reflects a lack of understanding of what Zionism actually means. And yes, it’s overly simple and conveniently ignores statements of opinion on how Israel came together as a modern country. Fair. But being opposed to genocide and man made famines is also simple and I think a lot of people just want a shortcut to name that pov. I’ll pick my words more carefully in the future.

OP here and I appreciate your thoughtful engagement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.

Categorically, you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The “sixty five laws” are listed here in case anyone is interested in clicking through them: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index. I am absolutely not afraid to post this link because what they are classifying as “discriminatory” is patently ridiculous. These wouldn’t even be considered unconstitutional in the United States.

I clicked on a few random ones, like this one: https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/610. It’s basically a GI Bill that provides tuition assistance to veterans. The website says that, even though the law says absolutely nothing about Jews/non-jews, it discriminates against Palestinian Israeli citizens because they are exempt from military service. Not banned/prohibited, mind you, EXEMPT. Arab Israelis can and do serve in the IDF.

Here’s a tidbit from another one I happened to click on: “While neutral on its face, in practice the law is used almost exclusively against Palestinians, who make up the overwhelming majority of detainees classified as ‘security’ detainees.” Oh so the law discriminates against those suspected of terrorist activities? Give me a f-ing break.

If you are even going to argue that Palestinian citizens are somehow treated equal to Israeli ones, then it is clear who is brainwashed. Just as a recent example, it was well documented that they were refused entry into bomb shelters during the recent Iran missile strikes.

Next thing from their playbook is to gaslight you into believing there is no apartheid in Israel and no genocide occurring in Gaza.

There is no genocide. Hamas started a war and they are losing it, it’s actually pretty simple. Was the Iraq war a genocide? Because that killed about four times as many Iraqi civilians. That’s not even getting into the fact that the number of Palestinians killed since October 7 (roughly 56,000) is inclusive of civilians AND militants. Hamas does not distinguish between the two.

And...there it is. You're a loon. We can all see very well what has and is happening. We've seen the dead babies, the starving children. They are TARGETING civilians. It's Israel that fails to distinguish between the two. Either you know that, and you're a liar, or you're fully brainwashed and talking to you is a waste of breath.