Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I consider white skinned jews white people and the white jews I know personally consider themselves white afaik and are quite happy successful individuals. Very connected and have a great sense community, unlike many others. They drive fancy cars and have fancy beach homes, the ladies get brazilian blowouts and plastic surgery and designer clothes. The kids go to pricey camps and clubs and jave the best of everything.

You sound jealous lol

No but there’s no doubt that they consider themselves white. They’re whiter than white.

And there it is. “Whiter than white.” From the brilliant book “Jews Don’t Count”:

“… racists say Jews aren’t white. Problem is, progressives, in general, tend to think they are white and, therefore, not really deserving of the protections progressive movements offer to non-white people facing racism. In some cases, Jews and Jewishness are used to signify even greater whiteness than normal.”

I mean many are wealthy people with white skin, with european ancestry.

There what is? Jewish people with white skin can and do pass as white because they are white and reap the benefits of being white, genuis.

Ok just call them white then. Why call them “whiter than white”? Explain yourself.

I mean my jewish friends/acquaintances remind me of the wasps of the mid 1900s US. Very exclusive country club-ish, posh, privileged, exquisite, lovely, luxurious life. They attend exclusive schools and universities and have connections and networking most can only dream of.

Ok got it. So to you white = rich, and Jews are ultra rich.

Do you think that protects them from antisemitism?

I don’t know? How are the wealthy extremely connected white jews I know affected by antisemitism? They have more support and a stronger network than anyone else I know.

Maybe ask them if you don’t know instead of assuming.

You say they remind you of the WASPs of the mid 1900s. Funny thing about those WASPs is that they discriminated against Jews, including rich Jews. Jews were prohibited from joining country clubs, and established their own for that reason. Woodmont Country Club right here in Rockville, Maryland was founded in 1913 when Jews were prohibited from joining other clubs in the Washington, D.C., area.

Well the tide has turned. The pendulum has swung.

It can swing back at any time. That’s the point.

But it hasn’t yet so unless you have a crystal ball this is impossible to predict. There should be a happy medium where everyone is treated equally.

You can see how this might come across to Jewish people though right? “Sure you’ve been discriminated against in basically every society you’ve been able to find some stability for your entire history, but this time is different, we promise.” [goes on to talk about how all Jews are ultra wealthy and live fabulous lives of luxury]

We can agree that wealthy white american jews are not discriminated against anymore correct? Anymore than anyone else?

Would you believe that not all white American Jews are wealthy?

Where are the poor nonconnected lonely white jews? In Kansas I suppose? All they need to do is move to my town and they’ll be set for life.

Why is Jews’ wealth or lack thereof at all relevant to this discussion? We’ve established that wealthy Jews can be and do experience antisemitism despite their wealth (and sometimes because of it).

How though? How do wealthy white American jews face antisemitism on a daily basis any more than any other American is experiencing discrimination of various forms?

I literally just explained this above and you said it was abhorrent and horrific. Why are we going around in circles?

To jog your memory, this is what I said: in just the past month in the DMV, young people were shot dead in the street for being Jewish, and a man with a knife was arrested outside my kids private Jewish school in Rockville screaming antisemitic slurs.

Netanyahu and his ilk are making the world an unsafe place for Jewish people. This is literally true.

And he's probably the biggest cause for the rise in antisemitism.

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread, OP!! Also really enjoyed the “in theory” Zionist PP comment above. One thought after reading this entire thing: I (embarrassingly) hadn’t considered that there is a spectrum of what people mean by anti-Zionist. The most extreme (and ok most accurate or literal) definition of antizionism is “destroy Israel.” That has a natural intersection with antisemitism.

That said, I think there are a lot of people struggling with what is happening in Gaza, and dislike the Israeli government, who have adopted the term to mean “the Israeli government is a sh*t show. The entire history of the region is messy and I don’t like it. Ceasefire now. Two state solution sounds great.” You see this play out in the other threads, with many saying that criticizing Israel is not antisemitism, being opposed to colonialism is not antisemitism etc… many using the term aren’t rooting for the destruction of Israel, just like many who cheer for “river to the sea” signs at protests aren’t calling for the destruction of Israel (I’m not trying to get into a debate - I know many are).

Sure, this reflects a lack of understanding of what Zionism actually means. And yes, it’s overly simple and conveniently ignores statements of opinion on how Israel came together as a modern country. Fair. But being opposed to genocide and man made famines is also simple and I think a lot of people just want a shortcut to name that pov. I’ll pick my words more carefully in the future.

[Anonymous]

People try to whitewash Zionism to make it more palatable.

I think you get a much more accurate reality of what Zionism entails by looking at the works and writings of early Zionists as well observing what their actions have been against Palestinians for over a century.

[Anonymous]

AntiZionism isn’t criticizing the Israeli government. AntiZionism is racism and calling for ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc of Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AntiZionism isn’t criticizing the Israeli government. AntiZionism is racism and calling for ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc of Jews.

And so what is Zionism? Isn’t that exactly what it is? Specifically when implementing its beliefs and practices comes at the expense of non Jews? Your argument is laughable. Any political party that promotes a state/party on ethno-nationalism, regardless of the reason why it started, is fundamentally racist. Racism is (amongst other things) the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another. Being Jewish is simply not the problem being a at all cost Zionist is. But it’s so much harder to defend Zionism without the antisemitism defense one might even argue that without it there is no defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

Yup, every point is absolutely true. Problem is Zionists don't like points 3, 4, and 5.

They don't like 3? I've never heard anyone claim Zionism is a religion. It's clearly a political theory — informed by and for the benefit of a religion, but it's obviously not a religion. Also, Israel does not have many non-Zionist Jews in its government.

I agree with point 5 generally. But I also think anti-Zionists flatten Jewish opinion, as well, at times.

For instance, I am, in theory, a Zionist; I believe the state of Israel should continue to exist in some form as a Jewish state. I also believe the war in Gaza is now, at best, a hideous collection of war crimes for no purpose; that decades of occupation are destroying the country from within; and that there's no way for Israelis or Palestinians to ever have peace unless there's a contiguous Palestinian state on most, if not all, of the pre-1967 territory Israel now controls, and possibly more to avoid cutting Gaza off from the West Bank. And I believe many of the settlers in the West Bank are insane religious zealot criminals who should be moved out of their homes by force as soon as possible.

Obviously, to some critics of Israel, my belief that the state should keep existing as a Jewish state, even if it's on a smaller footprint that mostly encompasses areas where only Jews live, puts my whole view far out of bounds. But I also don't really endorse 90 percent of "what Zionists believe" or "what Zionists like." And I know from talking to people at my synagogue that my view is not really as rare as you might think from reading this board or social media.

They don’t like 3 because antisemitism is an attack, across the board, against Jews. When Zionism is viewed as a political belief it is significantly more susceptible to criticism, specifically the question of “at what cost?” Shutting down criticism is much easier if one can simply yell antisemite in defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AntiZionism isn’t criticizing the Israeli government. AntiZionism is racism and calling for ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc of Jews.

Can you provide a source for this?

So what would the term be, if I don't support a religious nationalist state (Jewish or otherwise), especially to the detriment of others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AntiZionism isn’t criticizing the Israeli government. AntiZionism is racism and calling for ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc of Jews.

No. That is not what anti Zionism is. Zionism is a political movement with the belief that Jewish people have a right to a sovereign state in their historical homeland from 1000s of years ago.

What Zionism leaves out is that this homeland was home to others since the 1000s of years when many (not all) Jews left or converted to Islam (the prevailing religion of the region).

Anti Zionism is therefore the belief the political movement to prioritize Jews over Palestinians for the same land is not a political movement they agree with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AntiZionism isn’t criticizing the Israeli government. AntiZionism is racism and calling for ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc of Jews.

This is rich. So either you're for the Jewish people, and must allow them the freedom to ethnically cleanse the land OR you're against the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people, and thus you're an antisemite calling for the genocide of the Jewish people?

I understand that Jews are a traumatized people. But the projection had to stop. The only people currently being ethnically cleansed are Palestinians. And let's be real, it's not actually a matter of us vs. them, it just feels like it to y'all. They do not represent nearly the threat you believe them to be. They got off one major attack. That doesn't justify trying to wipeout the entire population. And no amount of hand-wringing about Jewish fear will justify it.

[Anonymous]

I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

Israel stole land to create a Jewish state. Israel refuses to address the problems caused by this. Netanyahu(who is moderate/left of center by Israeli standards) has a position that there will never be a Palestinian state and every country in the Middle East must be kept as a failed state. So now the policy of Israel is to kill all Palestinians.

Israel has no strategic interest in United States and is not an ally. At this point I have seen Israel and have to say it causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity. Why would a country like that have a right to exist? This is like saying Nazi German has a right to exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

Israel stole land to create a Jewish state. Israel refuses to address the problems caused by this. Netanyahu(who is moderate/left of center by Israeli standards) has a position that there will never be a Palestinian state and every country in the Middle East must be kept as a failed state. So now the policy of Israel is to kill all Palestinians.

Israel has no strategic interest in United States and is not an ally. At this point I have seen Israel and have to say it causes nothing but pain, terror, death, oppression and crimes against humanity. Why would a country like that have a right to exist? This is like saying Nazi German has a right to exist.

This is false. Netanyahu is more moderate than some of his coalition partners, including Ben-Gvir, who is essentially an unindicted coconspirator in the murder of Yitzhak Rabin. But he has always campaigned and governed as what he is, an ally of the hard right. It's true that the Israeli left has basically been fractured, partly because of a concerted campaign of harassment by the Netanyahu government and a decision by many Israeli leftists to leave the country, but that doesn't make Netanyahu left of center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's perfectly right and fair to criticize the Netanyahu government and its policies. There is nothing anti-semitic about that. But progressives seem to have adopted a narrative that states that Israel is a brutal western colonist state that violently conquered and displaced a peaceful indigenous people - like the conquistadors in the Americas in the 16th Century. And that's a stupid narrative. The entire Middle East was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. None of the countries there today are natural, organic nation states.

Prior to 1918, Lebanon didn't exist. Nor did Syria. Or Jordan. Or Iraq. Besides Egypt, every country in the Middle East is a modern construct that derives legitimacy from the United Nations, which drew the lines of the post-colonial world. In addition to Syria, Jordan, Iraq and elsewhere, the UN granted statehood and independence to places called Israel and Palestine. But the Arabs in Palestine chose not to accept their independence and chose war instead. And they and the region have been paying the price ever since for rejecting the post colonial boundaries that were established by the United Nations during a chaotic time when more than a 100 new countries were formed.

It was a stupid decision by Palestinians. The establishment of countries in South Asia - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh - and Africa involved far more movement among peoples than anything in the Middle East. And yet all those countries have been countries for nearly 80 years and life has moved on. But Palestinians are cursed by short-sightedness and misplaced feelings of grievance. Israel exists. It is as legitimate as any country in the Middle East. And Palestinians just make life worse and worse for themselves by their endless bad decisions - from rejecting the UN plan in 1948 to committing those massacres on October 7th. I dislike Netanyahu and the right wing settlers in the West Bank - that is a legitimate thing to sanction Israel for. But I don't question Israel's right to exist, which I guess makes me a Zionist.

The question is, do you think Israel has a right to exist as an undemocratic religious nationalist state?

A country called Israel that provided equal rights to all people, including those interested in obtaining citizenship? Few people have an issue with that. It's not the name of the country, but the premise and policies.

And I disagree with you on South Asia - life has very much not moved on after partition in many, many ways, and you seem to have an ill understanding of the region.

Do you think the 43 other countries that have an official state religion have a right to exist? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2017/10/03/many-countries-favor-specific-religions-officially-or-unofficially/.

If not, are you out there openly protesting their existence? No? Only Israel? Hmm curious.

Israel absolutely does provide equal rights to all its people. We’ve been over this. 20% of Israeli citizens (2.1 million people) are non-Jewish Arabs and they enjoy FULL rights under the law. Re: OBTAINING citizenship, you can absolutely become an Israeli citizen if you are not Jewish (compare to many Muslim majority countries where Jews are legally barred from obtaining citizenship). Jews are given preference in immigration matters because Israel was founded as a refuge for Jews, because the rest of the world murdered half of us and kept trying to persecute the rest. All countries have preferences built into their Immigration systems, including the US.

Categorically, this is false. Palestinian citizens are subject to over sixty discriminatory laws, are not allowed to build new cities and the cities that they have are severely underfunded comparatively speaking.