Reply to Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Interesting thread, OP!! Also really enjoyed the “in theory” Zionist PP comment above.  One thought after reading this entire thing: I (embarrassingly) hadn’t considered that there is a spectrum of what people mean by anti-Zionist. The most extreme (and ok most accurate or literal) definition of antizionism is “destroy Israel.” That has a natural intersection with antisemitism.

That said, I think there are a lot of people struggling with what is happening in Gaza, and dislike the Israeli government, who have adopted the term to mean “the Israeli government is a sh*t show. The entire history of the region is messy and I don’t like it. Ceasefire now. Two state solution sounds great.” You see this play out in the other threads, with many saying that criticizing Israel is not antisemitism, being opposed to colonialism is not antisemitism etc… many using the term aren’t rooting for the destruction of Israel, just like many who cheer for “river to the sea” signs at protests aren’t calling for the destruction of Israel (I’m not trying to get into a debate - I know many are).

Sure, this reflects a lack of understanding of what Zionism actually means. And yes, it’s overly simple and conveniently ignores statements of opinion on how Israel came together as a modern country. Fair. But being opposed to genocide and man made famines is also simple and I think a lot of people just want a shortcut to name that pov. I’ll pick my words more carefully in the future. [/quote]

Thanks for this thoughtful response to a thread that hasn't always been thoughtful.

For what it's worth, I don't think anti-Zionism means "two-state solution" to most people using the term, and it definitely doesn't register that way to anyone who even remotely thinks of themselves as a Zionist in any way.

Most American Jews who think of themselves as Zionists also want a two-state solution, and at this point most also want a ceasefire in Gaza. The loudest Zionists -- the ones who insist that any criticism of Israel is antisemitism -- make claims and assertions that most of the rest of us don't actually agree with. On the other hand, the loudest anti-Zionists also make claims and assertions that I assume most people who want to stand with Palestinians also don't actually agree with.

I'll stipulate that the feelings of American Jews are not the main problem from this war or from the long history of the Middle East, but since this is an endless DCUM thread mostly about the feelings of American Jews and whether they're legitimate, we may as well keep at it.

A lot of where the confusion between antisemitism (a real thing) and anti-Zionism (also a real thing that does not have to be antisemitism) comes into play is with the loudest, most extreme claims on both sides. Insisting that all American Jews bear full responsibility for Israeli policies is antisemitic and anti-Zionist; most critics of Zionism don't do this, but some do, and when they do, it makes almost all American Jews leery of a movement that welcomes that kind of rhetoric. Insisting that Israel should cease to exist or that every Israeli is a white colonial settler has the same effect. (Likewise, I can only imagine how some of the atrocious things Israeli Knesset members say about Palestinians sound to pro-Palestinian advocates, since they sound atrocious to me, and I'm much more sympathetic to Israel than most pro-Palestinian advocates are.)

I think the many, many legitimate critics of Israel would be more effective in a movement that found ways to welcome liberal Zionists critics of the state's policies, both because it would ultimately fold in more people and because it would be harder to accuse the pro-Palestinian cause of being antisemitic. Look, for instance, at how Zohran Mamdani cross-endorsed with Brad Lander in the NYC mayor's race; obviously that didn't shut up the freakout about Zohran, but it demonstrated a willingness on his part to look past ideological purity on the question, and I know it eased the minds of at least some progressive Jews who might otherwise have bought the (I think false) claims about Mamdani being dangerous to us...[/quote]

I am OP and I agree with pretty much all of this. I do think this is a strawman meant to silence Jews legitimate concerns about antisemitism, though, and I hear it CONSTANTLY: “ones who insist any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.”

I am a Jewish Zionist, raised around other Jewish Zionist. I went to a Jewish Zionist school growing up. I’ve been to Israel many times. I have NEVER and I mean NEVER met anyone who thinks any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It’s just not a thing.[/quote]

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