Alec Baldwin fatally shot someone on movie set with gun mishap

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If it is normal on movie sets to point guns at people and pull the trigger, I think that needs to change. It's not a safe practice.

So ... you've never seen a movie.

I have confidence that they can figure out how to have guns in movies without pointing them at cast and crew.

There are literally cast and crew surrounding the actors in a 360 degree production to get good angles, filming, and lighting on all side. You could point a gun behind you and hit someone.

The problem is someone brought live ammunition on set and someone else was too stupid to be handling a gun in the first place.

Usually Hollywood films, and only union films are allowed in California (notice this one was filmed in New Mexico), has two armourers on set. The Armourer loads the weapon and checks it. Then Head Armourer re-checks the magazine and ensures its say.

For some reason only known to the production team, of which Alec was lead Producer, they hired a 24-year-old who couldn't tell a blank from a live.

And that cost a woman her life.

Lots of inaccurate details here.

On a film set, a blank is considered a “live round”. A gun loaded with blanks is considered a hot gun. Because blanks can kill people. So can anything lodged anywhere in a gun, including debris from the gun having been fired previously. That’s why cleaning a gun after every use is such an important safety step, and why triple checks of guns on set is standard.

When reports say the gun had a “live round”, they are talking about a blank. Film sets are not even allowed to have actual bullet-tipped ammo on set, and even with blanks there are levels (1/2, 1/4, etc.) and the highest level is more restricted and requires greater on-set precautions.

So no, the issue here is not that someone didn’t know a blank from a live round. Blanks ARE live rounds. The issue is that a gun was handed to an actor with something inside it, and reportedly called a “cold gun” (ie an unloaded weapon that has been triple checked to be empty). It’s also an issue that a real gun, instead of a rubber gun, was used during a rehearsal. Standard protocol is that actors only handle real guns (a prop gun is a real gun) for as little time as possible, during the actual filming of the shot. It’s also an issue that an AD handed Baldwin the gun— only an armorer or prop master should be handling the gun, and only after performing required checks. The AD likely did not check the gun, and is not qualified to do so anyway.

Plus you have the issues with a camera crew walking off the set because of unsafe conditions that included 12-14 hr workdays with insufficient breaks or time off.

This was an unsafe set with non-Union workers who were being asked to work long hours under unsafe conditions. Corners were being cut for financial reasons. And someone died. This is a management issue and everyone in a position of authority on that set (including Baldwin, who as stated and co-producer was absolutely in a position of authority) bears some responsibility for this woman’s death.

The AD handed Baldwin the gun because the idiot armourer handed it to him.

The 24-year-old armorer who worked on Rust gave a child actress a gun without checking it on a previous film set, two production sources who worked with her said.

The two sources told The Daily Beast that Hannah Gutierrez-Reed had allegedly given an 11-year-old actress a gun without checking it properly while on the set of the Nicholas Cage film, The Old Way.

'There were a couple times she was loading the blanks and doing it in a fashion that we thought was unsafe,' one of the sources said.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like the only ones responsible are the AD, and the armorer. Early retirement for them I'm guessing.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2021-10-23/alec-baldwin-shooting-assistant-director-dave-halls

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New national rule needed - the only Head Armourer on set can be a licensed professional with 10 years experience or a 5-year background in military or private security or law enforcement.

If that 24-year-olds father had been hired - this never would have happened. He's a legend and a professional.

I think the actual rule needed is no live ammo and no blanks.

If they can add space ships and dinosaurs with technology, then I’m confident they can add gun shot effects.

Geez.

All the headlines today are finally asking the obvious question: wtf was live ammo doing on the set?!?!

You clearly did not read the lengthy explanation PP gave about what is considered live ammo. This seems to be a DCUM rule - act educated and give an opinion without education, and that usually comes from headline news.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From the LA Times article:
“ The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.

Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.”

So it doesn’t sound like he was pointing it at them

So he never touched the trigger? That’s the narrative?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Her 78 year old dad may be a legendary armorer, but he clearly failed to teach her the most important parts of being the armorer.

Youth are known to be arrogant.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Long work hours aren't unsafe, and not getting put up in Santa Fe hotels isn't unsafe.

Filming during covid is stressful and unfun but still happening. What happened is that someone made a mistake. Whether it was the head armorer or someone else will be determined.

^ Typed by a lazy loser who has never worked a long day in their life. Get bent you worthless jerk.

Filming involves long hours. And living in the West involves lots of driving. Santa Fe isn't Taos but it's still $$$$.

There are always massive problems during shooting. Usually, people do their jobs effectively enough for people not to die. Not this time though.

Are you the one hoping that Baldwin is charged with manslaughter?

No. I’m a member of the IA that drove 70 miles to set yesterday.

NP I understand what you are saying about rules/protocols on set. The only part I question is that basic gun safety states you always point a gun down range and never at people - EVER - and you don’t put your finger on the trigger unless you plan to fire, regardless of whether the gun is cold or not. So you practice unholstering, etc, pointed down range, (away from people and into blank space) and when you do actual filming, you double/triple check the weapon to be sure it’s as you want it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ it wasn’t Baldwin at fault. It was the employee that gave him a loaded gun telling him it was a cold gun(clear of ammo). That’s the one negligent.

If Baldwin had put basic gun safety in front of trusting the word of someone re: the gun being cold/non cold, no one would be dead.

[Anonymous]

the settlements or verdicts may well hit eight figures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the settlements or verdicts may well hit eight figures.

meant to say 10

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^ it wasn’t Baldwin at fault. It was the employee that gave him a loaded gun telling him it was a cold gun(clear of ammo). That’s the one negligent.

It’s the responsibility of the person holding the gun to make sure it is not loaded. Period.

So what is the weapons person’s job or should the actor micro manage every aspect of the shoot?

It’s the responsibility of any person handling a gun to make sure it’s not loaded. That’s not micro managing and has nothing to do with any other part of the shoot. Its the first rule of holding a weapon. If someone handed you a gun and says it’s not loaded wouldn’t you check before pointing it at someone?

I'm so curious about this. I absolutely agree with you when it comes to hunting, target shooting, etc. But I would think the "rules" are different in an acting environment. The gun is a prop, a dangerous one, but a prop nonetheless. As I mentioned before, I can't imagine that every actor who has used a gun checks it first. (And honestly, I wouldn't even expect them to know how. I don't.) This seems knowable though. There has to be a standard practice in the industry...and nothing I've seen in my casual following of this story has indicated that actors normally do what you are saying.

That’s the first problem. Rules should NOT be different

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"It’s the responsibility of the person holding the gun to make sure it is not loaded. Period."

Says who? In a normal situation when a person voluntarily shoots a gun without supervision, sure.

But lets say I am an actor with little or no knowledge of guns. I attend the required gun safety meeting.(Union was still there for that.) It's explained that the armorer will check the weapon. After that, the assistant director will check it to make sure it isn't loaded, and then hand it to me.

Here the gun was one of 3 guns on a cart outside the building. The armorer had checked them. The AD grabbed one off the cart. He was supposed to check it--despite several comments above that that wasn't his job, it sure sounds from reported protocols that it was. He probably should have attempted to fire it outside. We don't know it he did. Then he came into the building where AB was and handed it to AB saying "cold gun." Cold gun means there are NO blanks in the gun.

I don't think it's all that awful if the actor, who is not familiar with guns, assumes that the armorer and AD have checked the gun and there's nothing in it. AB might have thought the AD tested it outside the building where it was safer to do it. And he probably assumed that both the armorer and the AD were far more capable of checking the gun than he is.

Now there are reports that there were previous misfiring incidents. Company's release says there were no written complaints of any.

There is absolutely NO substantiated reports of ANY claim that the misfirings involved the same gun BaLdwin was using. Nor is there anything to indicate AB was aware of the misfirings. Please don't give me the "he was the producer" line. There were 3 other producers and an execurive producer.

Some of the claims that the union's complaints included gun safety were made AFTER the killing.

Neither the armorer nor the AD started working on the film after the union members quit. I have not seen ANY evidence that the presence of "scabs" was causually related in any way to the killing.

Personally, I think the union behaved badly by putting out the report that the gun had a live bullet, knowing full well that readers would think this means regular bullets.

Why don't we wait and see what the police investigation shows.

There’s a special kind of ‘I’m above it all because I’m the star’ arrogance that comes with that statement. Does not surprise me it came from someone who probably lives in the DC area, where the basic attitude is “I’m above it all - the peons do that for me”. When YOU handle a weapon, YOU are responsible for what comes out of it. I took safety lessons from a Navy Seal, and this was the first rule of thumb. The second was do not point a gun at anyone unless you intent is to kill”. So EVEN IF I’m a famous so-and-so, if the weapon is in MY hands, I not only know HOW to check that weapon, I CHECK IT. Trust but verify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ETA my sentiment about checking a weapon is not to hold Baldwin culpable--just to say that in situations like this, gun safety should be everyone's priority, not just the armorer, because clearly mistakes are made.

By this logic, an actor about to drive a car on a movie set should also check the engine before starting the car.

The actual logic would be check to be sure your brakes are working and there is not something sitting on the gas pedal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

"It’s the responsibility of the person holding the gun to make sure it is not loaded. Period."

Says who? In a normal situation when a person voluntarily shoots a gun without supervision, sure.

I'm not the PP, but I concur with the sentiment. I am sure actors and other staff assume and trust the armorers all the time. I just know that no one is ever going to be as concerned about my safety as I am.

I am curious to hear from people who know more about movie sets than I do why they still use weapons that can shoot anything.

I just don’t see actors stopping and checking a prop gun every time it’s handed to them and the assistant director and armorer say cold gun.

Then they have no business handling a gun. Someone like Woods would have checked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ETA my sentiment about checking a weapon is not to hold Baldwin culpable--just to say that in situations like this, gun safety should be everyone's priority, not just the armorer, because clearly mistakes are made.

By this logic, an actor about to drive a car on a movie set should also check the engine before starting the car.

Not really. A gun is used to shoot things such that they are killed or maimed or incapacitated. Any reasonably cogent and sentient person knows that you don't point a gun, loaded or unloaded, at another person or live being unless you are intending to kill, maim or incapacitate them. Yet Alec Baldwin did. That's a problem. He was holding the gun and he squeezed the trigger while pointing the gun at people. He, and he alone, is responsible for that.

It's not clear that Baldwin pointed the gun at anyone or if it misfired and shot something in an unpredictable direction.

Misfiring doesn’t mean “it just went off when I touched it”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^ it wasn’t Baldwin at fault. It was the employee that gave him a loaded gun telling him it was a cold gun(clear of ammo). That’s the one negligent.

It’s the responsibility of the person holding the gun to make sure it is not loaded. Period.

That makes the sheriff's job easy.

Why doesn't he know that?

It’s only been a few days. Alec Baldwin will 100% face manslaughter charges at some point.

Considering we don't always charge adults with a crime when they knowingly leave a gun around and a kid fires it and kills or injures someone I doubt Alec Baldwin is going to face any charges.

This LA Times story indicates he may not have even fired/discharged the gun - that is misfired when he took it from the holster while he was practicing for the scene:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set

Gun manufacturers should be held liable for misfiring when it hurts or kills someone. Car manufacturers couldn’t get away with cars that occasionally have all the wheels falling off or the steering wheel flying off and killing people. I don’t know why gun companies aren’t held to higher standards to ensure they don’t kill anyone.

Improper cleaning isn't really the fault of the gun manufacturer.

Maybe, but with cars, there are safety mechanisms in place for when people fail to perform maintenance, so that they aren’t out killing innocent people. Firearms need that as well.

You don’t know that there are safeties on firearms??