Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Oddly enough I took one of those 5 names which is pretty unique and googled it. Though her certification was revoked in 2004 she is *wait for it* working as a CPM midwife!

Great system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's perfectly okay for the homebirth community to come forward with support for their beloved midwife. She has touched many lives and has had some great outcomes. HOWEVER, what disturbs me about this case is that they are not willing to share any details. The website set up to take donations and the blog posts regarding her arrest make no mention of what really happened. Instead, they only state, "a disheartening investigation ensued after the tragic death of a client’s baby."
[b]

No one can talk about details - it is a criminal proceeding and everyone has to remain silent until the trial. Nothing being hidden - all will be heard at the trial.

Please cite on the docket where a gag order was issued by the judge, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unless NARM knows about a midwife's practice (if she's reported) they cannot take action. In Karen Carr's case, she has no license. I suspect that if she had possessed a license with the same scenario, she would not have been prosecuted criminally. Instead, she would have been disciplined by her licensing board. That's what it means to be accountable. I wonder what NARM would think about this case if they knew the details? But even if her CPM was revoked, it wouldn't stop Karen Carr. She doesn't see herself as beholden to any law or regulation or rule.

Karen is licensed, not in Virginia as has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's perfectly okay for the homebirth community to come forward with support for their beloved midwife. She has touched many lives and has had some great outcomes. HOWEVER, what disturbs me about this case is that they are not willing to share any details. The website set up to take donations and the blog posts regarding her arrest make no mention of what really happened. Instead, they only state, "a disheartening investigation ensued after the tragic death of a client’s baby."
[b]

No one can talk about details - it is a criminal proceeding and everyone has to remain silent until the trial. Nothing being hidden - all will be heard at the trial.

Please cite on the docket where a gag order was issued by the judge, thanks.

Regardless of whether there's a "gag order", if Karen Carr has a lawyer, which I assume she does, I'm sure her lawyer would advise her and her supporters not to talk about details of the case. That's Lawyering 101.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's perfectly okay for the homebirth community to come forward with support for their beloved midwife. She has touched many lives and has had some great outcomes. HOWEVER, what disturbs me about this case is that they are not willing to share any details. The website set up to take donations and the blog posts regarding her arrest make no mention of what really happened. Instead, they only state, "a disheartening investigation ensued after the tragic death of a client’s baby."
[b]

No one can talk about details - it is a criminal proceeding and everyone has to remain silent until the trial. Nothing being hidden - all will be heard at the trial.

Please cite on the docket where a gag order was issued by the judge, thanks.

Perhaps not a gag order but common sense not to post on DCUM. This thread shows how little regards for the facts some people have. Their motto seems to be lets just make accusations against someone with no real knowledge of the case or the people involved. Oh and maybe you know the lawyer's said don't talk about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if CPMs are all so dangerous, why are they perfectly OK in over 30 other states? She wasn't licensed in VA probably because if she was, she couldn't practice legally in MD. News flash anyway, CPM licensure in Virginia actually limits the practice to a point that it is LESS safe WITH licensure than without. They cannot legally carry oxygen and other lifesaving medication as a licensed CPM. But all of them do because it's good medicine to do so, so all of them are practicing illegally in VA, licensed or not. To attend births at home as a CNM, you have to find a physician to back you up. Which is next to impossible because of insurance concerns. So nobody wants to be a CNM either. And the hospitals make it even more dangerous by abusing transferring moms and babies and midwives instead of welcoming and working with them. So homebirth has its hands tied no matter how you slice it. Hospitals and doctors make it less safe because nobody works together. No doc wants to learn to use forceps, nobody wants to learn how to deliver breech, nobody wants to do VBAC. The real problem here is that the CPM licensing is screwed up. It's not Karen's fault she wasn't licensed in Maryland if there is no such license to be had!

Well, CPMs do seem to be good at lobbying together (as we've seen here), so maybe that has something to do with it?

The rest of this doesn't make much sense to me. It's illegal for a CPM to carry oxygen and other medications, so instead of acting illegally by carrying the oxygen and other meds anyway, she chooses to act illegally by not being licensed and acting as a care provider anyway? With the license, she would have been reviewed by her licensing body. Without the license, she's criminally liable for practicing medicine without a license. Like I said, I'm not seeing the logic there.

YES! There IS no logic! THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's perfectly okay for the homebirth community to come forward with support for their beloved midwife. She has touched many lives and has had some great outcomes. HOWEVER, what disturbs me about this case is that they are not willing to share any details. The website set up to take donations and the blog posts regarding her arrest make no mention of what really happened. Instead, they only state, "a disheartening investigation ensued after the tragic death of a client’s baby."
[b]

No one can talk about details - it is a criminal proceeding and everyone has to remain silent until the trial. Nothing being hidden - all will be heard at the trial.

Please cite on the docket where a gag order was issued by the judge, thanks.

Perhaps not a gag order but common sense not to post on DCUM. This thread shows how little regards for the facts some people have. Their motto seems to be lets just make accusations against someone with no real knowledge of the case or the people involved. Oh and maybe you know the lawyer's said don't talk about it.

Look, people can do nothing more than speculate until the trial. All we have to go on is the DCUM forum and a scathing review of BirthCare by the grieving mom. What in the heck else do you think people are going to use to base their support on? It's not like those close to the case would ever say that she was negligent during the birth. Anyone who touts this is a "disheartening investigation" wouldn't come out against any potential negligence anyway so we wouldn't be getting the "real" story from Karen's supporter's anyway. We will all have to wait until the trial to hear what really happened - even those who are privvy to one side of the story.

And I kind of like this thread...I'm learning a lot here about many different issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if CPMs are all so dangerous, why are they perfectly OK in over 30 other states? She wasn't licensed in VA probably because if she was, she couldn't practice legally in MD. News flash anyway, CPM licensure in Virginia actually limits the practice to a point that it is LESS safe WITH licensure than without. They cannot legally carry oxygen and other lifesaving medication as a licensed CPM. But all of them do because it's good medicine to do so, so all of them are practicing illegally in VA, licensed or not. To attend births at home as a CNM, you have to find a physician to back you up. Which is next to impossible because of insurance concerns. So nobody wants to be a CNM either. And the hospitals make it even more dangerous by abusing transferring moms and babies and midwives instead of welcoming and working with them. So homebirth has its hands tied no matter how you slice it. Hospitals and doctors make it less safe because nobody works together. No doc wants to learn to use forceps, nobody wants to learn how to deliver breech, nobody wants to do VBAC. The real problem here is that the CPM licensing is screwed up. It's not Karen's fault she wasn't licensed in Maryland if there is no such license to be had!

Well, CPMs do seem to be good at lobbying together (as we've seen here), so maybe that has something to do with it?

The rest of this doesn't make much sense to me. It's illegal for a CPM to carry oxygen and other medications, so instead of acting illegally by carrying the oxygen and other meds anyway, she chooses to act illegally by not being licensed and acting as a care provider anyway? With the license, she would have been reviewed by her licensing body. Without the license, she's criminally liable for practicing medicine without a license. Like I said, I'm not seeing the logic there.

YES! There IS no logic! THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT PEOPLE ARE UPSET ABOUT!

The logic problem is that instead of being illegal in a way that was less risk averse (carrying meds she wasn't supposed to be carrying; violations dealt with by her licensing body), she chose to be illegal in a way that left her wide open to prosecution for practicing medicine without a license. In the former, she's likely to lose her license. In the latter, she's likely to go to jail. Why would she choose the latter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless NARM knows about a midwife's practice (if she's reported) they cannot take action. In Karen Carr's case, she has no license. I suspect that if she had possessed a license with the same scenario, she would not have been prosecuted criminally. Instead, she would have been disciplined by her licensing board. That's what it means to be accountable. I wonder what NARM would think about this case if they knew the details? But even if her CPM was revoked, it wouldn't stop Karen Carr. She doesn't see herself as beholden to any law or regulation or rule.

Karen is licensed, not in Virginia as has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread.

And as we have discussed, ad nauseam, this happened in Virginia, where she was unlicensed, and Virginia is prosecuting her. Not so hard to follow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's perfectly okay for the homebirth community to come forward with support for their beloved midwife. She has touched many lives and has had some great outcomes. HOWEVER, what disturbs me about this case is that they are not willing to share any details. The website set up to take donations and the blog posts regarding her arrest make no mention of what really happened. Instead, they only state, "a disheartening investigation ensued after the tragic death of a client’s baby."
[b]

No one can talk about details - it is a criminal proceeding and everyone has to remain silent until the trial. Nothing being hidden - all will be heard at the trial.

Please cite on the docket where a gag order was issued by the judge, thanks.

Perhaps not a gag order but common sense not to post on DCUM. This thread shows how little regards for the facts some people have. Their motto seems to be lets just make accusations against someone with no real knowledge of the case or the people involved. Oh and maybe you know the lawyer's said don't talk about it.

Look, people can do nothing more than speculate until the trial. All we have to go on is the DCUM forum and a scathing review of BirthCare by the grieving mom. What in the heck else do you think people are going to use to base their support on? It's not like those close to the case would ever say that she was negligent during the birth. Anyone who touts this is a "disheartening investigation" wouldn't come out against any potential negligence anyway so we wouldn't be getting the "real" story from Karen's supporter's anyway. We will all have to wait until the trial to hear what really happened - even those who are privvy to one side of the story.

And I kind of like this thread...I'm learning a lot here about many different issues.

Yes but the question is why speculate when you don't know anything because once it is out there it is kind of hard to take back whether it is proven true or false. I'm a huge supporter of Karen's. She delivered my baby and I trust her. Do I think that she was negligent and caused this baby's death? No I don't. Even though I think that could I be wrong? Yes I could.

Bottom line I was not there so I can't make a statement that is accurate about this case. The problem I have with this thread is that a lot of people who fall on both sides, supporting Karen/home birthing and those who are vehemently opposed have no problem making statements like they are the absolute truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless NARM knows about a midwife's practice (if she's reported) they cannot take action. In Karen Carr's case, she has no license. I suspect that if she had possessed a license with the same scenario, she would not have been prosecuted criminally. Instead, she would have been disciplined by her licensing board. That's what it means to be accountable. I wonder what NARM would think about this case if they knew the details? But even if her CPM was revoked, it wouldn't stop Karen Carr. She doesn't see herself as beholden to any law or regulation or rule.

Karen is licensed, not in Virginia as has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread.

And as we have discussed, ad nauseam, this happened in Virginia, where she was unlicensed, and Virginia is prosecuting her. Not so hard to follow.

People keep bringing up the fact that she was UNLICENSED and UNTRAINED and LACKING SKILL, etc. etc. CPMs with her exact training are recognized and legal in the majority of this country. She was simply not licensed in Virginia. Because she lives in Maryland. Okay, so, she has earned the practicing without a license charge. Fair enough. But I think everyone is shocked and wanting to protest the outrageous manslaughter charge and that is the biggest issue here. Everyone is so hung up on requiring licensing and certification and degrees and time served reading books and writing stupid pointless papers and kissing professor ass. Well guess what, guys, EMTs and paramedics have as much or less training than the CPMs. No college degree required there, either. I was a freaking EMT IN HIGH SCHOOL and I was able to save lives without even a high school degree. But everyone trusts EMTs and paramedics with lives, it's their sole job and core training to save lives, right? You know how EMTs know how to deliver babies in emergency situations? They read a card with the steps on it. (This card includes how to deliver a breech, by the way). And then they give out bad and dangerous advice like tie off the umbilical cord with a shoelace. But everyone's like "Call an ambulance!!! OMG!" if a baby is being born in a Mc Donalds bathroom. The paramedics generally have no idea how to catch a baby and they generally have never seen it before. So ironic. It really ought to be "Call the town midwife!"
You know who else we entrust with our lives who don't require anything but some extra training? Licensed practical nurses, yep, the people you trust and hire to care for your dying grandma in hospice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes but the question is why speculate when you don't know anything because once it is out there it is kind of hard to take back whether it is proven true or false. I'm a huge supporter of Karen's. She delivered my baby and I trust her. Do I think that she was negligent and caused this baby's death? No I don't. Even though I think that could I be wrong? Yes I could.

Bottom line I was not there so I can't make a statement that is accurate about this case. The problem I have with this thread is that a lot of people who fall on both sides, supporting Karen/home birthing and those who are vehemently opposed have no problem making statements like they are the absolute truth.

I don't know, there seem to be quite a few facts floating around.

Fact #1: Karen was unlicensed while attending a homebirth, and a baby died.
Fact #2: CPMs can be licensed in Virginia.
Fact #3: The website asking for donations to support Karen characterizes the current investigation as "disheartening" and says that she's being "charged with involuntary manslaughter and other felonies for her role as a homebirth midwife" while leaving out the whole unlicensed bit.

There's a lot of discussion to be had just from the above facts. What statements are people making "like they are the absolute truth?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes but the question is why speculate when you don't know anything because once it is out there it is kind of hard to take back whether it is proven true or false. I'm a huge supporter of Karen's. She delivered my baby and I trust her. Do I think that she was negligent and caused this baby's death? No I don't. Even though I think that could I be wrong? Yes I could.

Bottom line I was not there so I can't make a statement that is accurate about this case. The problem I have with this thread is that a lot of people who fall on both sides, supporting Karen/home birthing and those who are vehemently opposed have no problem making statements like they are the absolute truth.

I don't know, there seem to be quite a few facts floating around.

Fact #1: Karen was unlicensed while attending a homebirth, and a baby died.
Fact #2: CPMs can be licensed in Virginia.
Fact #3: The website asking for donations to support Karen characterizes the current investigation as "disheartening" and says that she's being "charged with involuntary manslaughter and other felonies for her role as a homebirth midwife" while leaving out the whole unlicensed bit.

There's a lot of discussion to be had just from the above facts. What statements are people making "like they are the absolute truth?"

People are posting that she was negligent. People are posting that she is not licensed anywhere. People are posting that the breech baby was a footling though others are posting it is not. Others are posting that she takes on all cases with no regard for the safety of mother or baby. Some are posting that Dr. T wouldn't take this case and others are posting that he said he would but might be out of town. Others are posting about the sex life of Ina May Gaskin. Yes, you are right, there are some facts and then there are "some facts"

[Anonymous]

"You know who else we entrust with our lives who don't require anything but some extra training? Licensed practical nurses, yep, the people you trust and hire to care for your dying grandma in hospice.



You clearly have little or no knowledge regarding the education/training and licensure of LPNs, Ms. Know-it-All!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"You know who else we entrust with our lives who don't require anything but some extra training? Licensed practical nurses, yep, the people you trust and hire to care for your dying grandma in hospice.

You clearly have little or no knowledge regarding the education/training and licensure of LPNs, Ms. Know-it-All!

And you don't know anything about CPMs if you think that it comes anywhere close to the amount of training a LPN requires!!!! Really I have read the requirements and know several LPNs and it is not even comparable to the amount of training a CPM requires.