Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My kids public ES had a stabbing directly across the street last week, it was in the afternoon but the person was stabbed multiple times and airlifted to a trauma center.

^it was a nonjewish person

Again, so your position is that antisemitism doesn’t matter because other crime exists? Is that your position on racism too?

My position is that it’s all the same, one doesn’t override the other. We are all at risk, some a little more than others depending on where you live and much of it involves delusional mentally ill people.

Ok got it. You don’t think antisemitism and racism are specifically a problem. That’s certainly…..a view to have in America in 2025

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My kids public ES had a stabbing directly across the street last week, it was in the afternoon but the person was stabbed multiple times and airlifted to a trauma center.

^it was a nonjewish person

Again, so your position is that antisemitism doesn’t matter because other crime exists? Is that your position on racism too?

My position is that it’s all the same, one doesn’t override the other. We are all at risk, some a little more than others depending on where you live and much of it involves delusional mentally ill people.

Ok got it. You don’t think antisemitism and racism are specifically a problem. That’s certainly…..a view to have in America in 2025

They are equally important issues along with a plethora of others.

[Anonymous]

I live in a highly populated jewish area and the most recent attempted homicide by stabbing near the elementary school was not jewish.

[Anonymous]

I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

[Anonymous]

I genuinely think the problem with Zionism is they framed Israel as a little America. It’s not. If they framed Israel as what it actually is, a Middle eastern country with Middle eastern people and middle eastern revenge politics then nobody would be as shocked. I wouldn’t even call Israel a white country

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

1) True
2) True but 90% or so of them are
3) Zionism is the belief that the state of Israel should exist, and Israel is where half the world’s Jews live, so it’s impossible to completely bifurcate Zionism and religion.
4) No, those Jews are probably not antisemitic. That doesn’t mean antizionists are never antisemitic though.
5) Literally NOBODY, even the most ardent zionists I know, claim that criticism of the Israeli government is antisemitic on its own. But some criticism of Israel is indeed motivated by antisemitism. And the venn diagram between antizionism (the belief that the state of Israel should be dismantled) and antisemitism is almost a perfect circle.

[Anonymous]

Israel’s biggest threat isn’t even Islam but major secularism. Overtime, Judaism will grow extinct or overtaken by Israeli Arabs because literally nobody in major parts of Israel are practicing Jews or heterosexuals. Muslims know how to quietly overtake by overpopulation and I don’t think they do it intentionally but the stuff we mock them about (not accepting homosexuality and high birth rates) kinda helps them. In Israel, had to create a special task force and police to stop Jewish women from dating arab Israeli men and this was back in the mid 2000s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I genuinely think the problem with Zionism is they framed Israel as a little America. It’s not. If they framed Israel as what it actually is, a Middle eastern country with Middle eastern people and middle eastern revenge politics then nobody would be as shocked. I wouldn’t even call Israel a white country

Yes! This is literally talking point #10 in chapter 1 of the the United States/France/Germany/England handbook on how to talk about Israel: https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf

“10. Draw direct parallels between Israel and America”

[Anonymous]

I’m part Jewish (I have been told by some Jews this means I’m Jewish and other Jews that I am not because the heritage is in my Dad’s side who never practiced or believed in God).

I’m married to a south Asian. My kids are a wonderful mix of multiple cultural and heritages.

I am not antisemitic.

But I think

1) what Israel is doing in Gaza in wrong (and immoral and inhumane)
2) the influence of Jewish money in US politics is real (I have a personal account that proves this beyond a doubt to me)
3) Israel and zionists have down some horrific things to other people living within its borders and has covered that up (even at my local library in the US going as far as stationing people at a photo exhibit of homes and towns destroyed in the Nakbah to try to convince peole not to believe the photo evidence)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I genuinely think the problem with Zionism is they framed Israel as a little America. It’s not. If they framed Israel as what it actually is, a Middle eastern country with Middle eastern people and middle eastern revenge politics then nobody would be as shocked. I wouldn’t even call Israel a white country

Definitely none of the early Zionists framed Israel as a little America.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

Yup, every point is absolutely true. Problem is Zionists don't like points 3, 4, and 5.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

Yup, every point is absolutely true. Problem is Zionists don't like points 3, 4, and 5.

They don't like 3? I've never heard anyone claim Zionism is a religion. It's clearly a political theory — informed by and for the benefit of a religion, but it's obviously not a religion. Also, Israel does not have many non-Zionist Jews in its government.

I agree with point 5 generally. But I also think anti-Zionists flatten Jewish opinion, as well, at times.

For instance, I am, in theory, a Zionist; I believe the state of Israel should continue to exist in some form as a Jewish state. I also believe the war in Gaza is now, at best, a hideous collection of war crimes for no purpose; that decades of occupation are destroying the country from within; and that there's no way for Israelis or Palestinians to ever have peace unless there's a contiguous Palestinian state on most, if not all, of the pre-1967 territory Israel now controls, and possibly more to avoid cutting Gaza off from the West Bank. And I believe many of the settlers in the West Bank are insane religious zealot criminals who should be moved out of their homes by force as soon as possible.

Obviously, to some critics of Israel, my belief that the state should keep existing as a Jewish state, even if it's on a smaller footprint that mostly encompasses areas where only Jews live, puts my whole view far out of bounds. But I also don't really endorse 90 percent of "what Zionists believe" or "what Zionists like." And I know from talking to people at my synagogue that my view is not really as rare as you might think from reading this board or social media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t need to read 28 pages of back and forth. Because the following are true:

1) You do not have to be Jewish to be a Zionist
2) Not all Jews are Zionists
3) Zionism is a political theory not a religion
4) Israel has many non-Zionist Jews within Israel and their own government (are these Jews antisemetic?)
5) Equating Zionism with Judaism (and anti Zionism with antisemitism) erases the diversity of Jewish opinion, silences legitimate political criticism and weaponizes Jewish identity, shutting down debate and ironically promoting antisemitism by making it harder to distinguish between prejudice and protest.

Yup, every point is absolutely true. Problem is Zionists don't like points 3, 4, and 5.

They don't like 3? I've never heard anyone claim Zionism is a religion. It's clearly a political theory — informed by and for the benefit of a religion, but it's obviously not a religion. Also, Israel does not have many non-Zionist Jews in its government.

I agree with point 5 generally. But I also think anti-Zionists flatten Jewish opinion, as well, at times.

For instance, I am, in theory, a Zionist; I believe the state of Israel should continue to exist in some form as a Jewish state. I also believe the war in Gaza is now, at best, a hideous collection of war crimes for no purpose; that decades of occupation are destroying the country from within; and that there's no way for Israelis or Palestinians to ever have peace unless there's a contiguous Palestinian state on most, if not all, of the pre-1967 territory Israel now controls, and possibly more to avoid cutting Gaza off from the West Bank. And I believe many of the settlers in the West Bank are insane religious zealot criminals who should be moved out of their homes by force as soon as possible.

Obviously, to some critics of Israel, my belief that the state should keep existing as a Jewish state, even if it's on a smaller footprint that mostly encompasses areas where only Jews live, puts my whole view far out of bounds. But I also don't really endorse 90 percent of "what Zionists believe" or "what Zionists like." And I know from talking to people at my synagogue that my view is not really as rare as you might think from reading this board or social media.

I am OP and your views are not at all uncommon among the Zionists I know. I agree with most of them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I consider white skinned jews white people and the white jews I know personally consider themselves white afaik and are quite happy successful individuals. Very connected and have a great sense community, unlike many others. They drive fancy cars and have fancy beach homes, the ladies get brazilian blowouts and plastic surgery and designer clothes. The kids go to pricey camps and clubs and jave the best of everything.

You sound jealous lol

No but there’s no doubt that they consider themselves white. They’re whiter than white.

And there it is. “Whiter than white.” From the brilliant book “Jews Don’t Count”:

“… racists say Jews aren’t white. Problem is, progressives, in general, tend to think they are white and, therefore, not really deserving of the protections progressive movements offer to non-white people facing racism. In some cases, Jews and Jewishness are used to signify even greater whiteness than normal.”

I mean many are wealthy people with white skin, with european ancestry.

There what is? Jewish people with white skin can and do pass as white because they are white and reap the benefits of being white, genuis.

Ok just call them white then. Why call them “whiter than white”? Explain yourself.

I mean my jewish friends/acquaintances remind me of the wasps of the mid 1900s US. Very exclusive country club-ish, posh, privileged, exquisite, lovely, luxurious life. They attend exclusive schools and universities and have connections and networking most can only dream of.

Ok got it. So to you white = rich, and Jews are ultra rich.

Do you think that protects them from antisemitism?

I don’t know? How are the wealthy extremely connected white jews I know affected by antisemitism? They have more support and a stronger network than anyone else I know.

Maybe ask them if you don’t know instead of assuming.

You say they remind you of the WASPs of the mid 1900s. Funny thing about those WASPs is that they discriminated against Jews, including rich Jews. Jews were prohibited from joining country clubs, and established their own for that reason. Woodmont Country Club right here in Rockville, Maryland was founded in 1913 when Jews were prohibited from joining other clubs in the Washington, D.C., area.

Well the tide has turned. The pendulum has swung.

It can swing back at any time. That’s the point.

But it hasn’t yet so unless you have a crystal ball this is impossible to predict. There should be a happy medium where everyone is treated equally.

You can see how this might come across to Jewish people though right? “Sure you’ve been discriminated against in basically every society you’ve been able to find some stability for your entire history, but this time is different, we promise.” [goes on to talk about how all Jews are ultra wealthy and live fabulous lives of luxury]

We can agree that wealthy white american jews are not discriminated against anymore correct? Anymore than anyone else?

Would you believe that not all white American Jews are wealthy?

Where are the poor nonconnected lonely white jews? In Kansas I suppose? All they need to do is move to my town and they’ll be set for life.

Why is Jews’ wealth or lack thereof at all relevant to this discussion? We’ve established that wealthy Jews can be and do experience antisemitism despite their wealth (and sometimes because of it).

How though? How do wealthy white American jews face antisemitism on a daily basis any more than any other American is experiencing discrimination of various forms?

I literally just explained this above and you said it was abhorrent and horrific. Why are we going around in circles?

Discrimination will always exist, racism, sexism, classism, ageism, antisemitism, etc. How are wealthy white jews affected worse than any other minority person in the US? Other than being shot at, in which everyone is at risk in the US, what risks are there to being a rich white American jew?

The risk that your child will get knifed by an antisemitic lunatic at their Jewish school, for one thing.

How many white american jewish kids have been stabbed to death?

In the last month, two Jewish young people have been shot in DC for being Jewish.

Horrible act of violence and all of us are at risk of being stabbed by a delusional mental patient as well. This just happened in my neighborhood last week. Unfortunately nowhere is 100% perfectly safe for anyone.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I consider white skinned jews white people and the white jews I know personally consider themselves white afaik and are quite happy successful individuals. Very connected and have a great sense community, unlike many others. They drive fancy cars and have fancy beach homes, the ladies get brazilian blowouts and plastic surgery and designer clothes. The kids go to pricey camps and clubs and jave the best of everything.

You sound jealous lol

No but there’s no doubt that they consider themselves white. They’re whiter than white.

And there it is. “Whiter than white.” From the brilliant book “Jews Don’t Count”:

“… racists say Jews aren’t white. Problem is, progressives, in general, tend to think they are white and, therefore, not really deserving of the protections progressive movements offer to non-white people facing racism. In some cases, Jews and Jewishness are used to signify even greater whiteness than normal.”

I mean many are wealthy people with white skin, with european ancestry.

There what is? Jewish people with white skin can and do pass as white because they are white and reap the benefits of being white, genuis.

Ok just call them white then. Why call them “whiter than white”? Explain yourself.

I mean my jewish friends/acquaintances remind me of the wasps of the mid 1900s US. Very exclusive country club-ish, posh, privileged, exquisite, lovely, luxurious life. They attend exclusive schools and universities and have connections and networking most can only dream of.

Ok got it. So to you white = rich, and Jews are ultra rich.

Do you think that protects them from antisemitism?

I don’t know? How are the wealthy extremely connected white jews I know affected by antisemitism? They have more support and a stronger network than anyone else I know.

Maybe ask them if you don’t know instead of assuming.

You say they remind you of the WASPs of the mid 1900s. Funny thing about those WASPs is that they discriminated against Jews, including rich Jews. Jews were prohibited from joining country clubs, and established their own for that reason. Woodmont Country Club right here in Rockville, Maryland was founded in 1913 when Jews were prohibited from joining other clubs in the Washington, D.C., area.

Well the tide has turned. The pendulum has swung.

It can swing back at any time. That’s the point.

But it hasn’t yet so unless you have a crystal ball this is impossible to predict. There should be a happy medium where everyone is treated equally.

You can see how this might come across to Jewish people though right? “Sure you’ve been discriminated against in basically every society you’ve been able to find some stability for your entire history, but this time is different, we promise.” [goes on to talk about how all Jews are ultra wealthy and live fabulous lives of luxury]

We can agree that wealthy white american jews are not discriminated against anymore correct? Anymore than anyone else?

Would you believe that not all white American Jews are wealthy?

Where are the poor nonconnected lonely white jews? In Kansas I suppose? All they need to do is move to my town and they’ll be set for life.

Why is Jews’ wealth or lack thereof at all relevant to this discussion? We’ve established that wealthy Jews can be and do experience antisemitism despite their wealth (and sometimes because of it).

How though? How do wealthy white American jews face antisemitism on a daily basis any more than any other American is experiencing discrimination of various forms?

I literally just explained this above and you said it was abhorrent and horrific. Why are we going around in circles?

To jog your memory, this is what I said: in just the past month in the DMV, young people were shot dead in the street for being Jewish, and a man with a knife was arrested outside my kids private Jewish school in Rockville screaming antisemitic slurs.

Netanyahu and his ilk are making the world an unsafe place for Jewish people. This is literally true.