White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

The black latex thing reads like something straight out of incel forums, where perhaps coincidentally they also fetishize Asian women. Maybe Cao hangs out with the incels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, white women have been controlled/victimized by a combination of men’s Madonna/whore thing, the industrial revolution’s glorification of motherhood, society-wide oppression of other races, and being the largest race proportionately. This not an unalloyed good thing. And it’s a stereotype, because many of us still get molested and talked over in meetings and we’re not all rich.

Yes, white women need to get off the pedestal (the Madonna thing). But the answer is not to silence them, make them wear black latex and rip their nails out because there’s no inoffensive nail shape. (And you just know Steffi would start claiming black latex and bloody nail beds are the new white women power symbols.) That’s someone’s sick revenge fantasy.

The answer is to elevate all women. Even Steffi had to acknowledge that POC women have gained power, on her way to arguing that oval nails are white women’s attempt to “reclaim” power they’ve lost. Let’s keep elevating POC.

I’m so tired of the word elevate. It’s just meaningless blather. How about we just get rid of the pedestal and bring everyone back down to earth for some common sense?

OK, get rid of the pedestal. That doesn’t mean grinding some groups into the dirt with revenge fantasy restrictions on when and where they can speak up, what they wear, and how they file their nails.

[Anonymous]

This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

It’s embarrassing when women refuse to see overt sexism in an attempt to cozy up to men. The pick-me women are so sad. They will never, ever be picked by the men in power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

Thank you, sanctimommy, you can get off your own pedestal now.

- apparently they’re triggering enough they merited an NPR segment. Who are you, exactly, to speak for POC and NPR?

- nobody, but nobody, is saying this. What are you blathering on about?

- Karen started with the Incels and is about shutting up older, white women. Have you been living under a rock? No, most of us don’t see ourselves in “Karen” behavior, you made that up, because you’re virtue signalling. We DO think twice before sending back the cold latte, and that’s the whole purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

It’s embarrassing when women refuse to see overt sexism in an attempt to cozy up to men. The pick-me women are so sad. They will never, ever be picked by the men in power.

Hmm, I thought she was virtue signalling from her laptop. But yeah, she desperately wants someone’s approval so she’s willing to ignore blatant sexism, racism and ageism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

Ding ding ding

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

Ding ding ding

This is social policing, not different from fundamentalist communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

It’s embarrassing when women refuse to see overt sexism in an attempt to cozy up to men. The pick-me women are so sad. They will never, ever be picked by the men in power.

Hmm, I thought she was virtue signalling from her laptop. But yeah, she desperately wants someone’s approval so she’s willing to ignore blatant sexism, racism and ageism.

It is a mentality and a behavior practice. A lot of behavior that is sometimes called “virtue-signaling” by women is a practice of wiping away one’s own corners and sharper edges to fit into the narrowly prescribed circles for women drawn by the men in power. That is an ongoing practice of self-minimization. The PP does it so often that she injects her self-erasure and search for male approval into her DCUM posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This whole argument is embarrassing for white women (as a white woman)

* your makeup/home design choices aren't triggering to anyone - just because some weirdo wrote an essay about that doesn't make you a victim

* if you start saying your makeup choice is the norm or the aspiration for ALL women or defining womanhood as only your choices that is what is upsetting and should be called out not because you are a victim but because we as a society should get past defining white people as the norm and all others as "other"

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

I mean, regarding your last question, the whole point is that this can be a question of perception, and that increasingly it feels like as a white woman, if you speak up to complain, it will be viewed as exercising privilege or pulling a power play no matter what your actual intentions are, or even what you are asking for. Example:

My kid's school limits their recess time below what is required by the district all the time. The kids regularly get like 10 minutes of recess for the whole day. But when I complained about this, I was told by someone on the PTO that "only white people complain about this" and also that it was unfair to the (mostly black) teachers to expect them to do a better job with recess. I definitely think my complaint was viewed by the school and even by some other parents as me "exercising privilege" but I was honestly just frustrated by how little time my child spends outside and engaging in free play, something I think she (and other kids, of all colors) need more of. Was I being a Karen? Or was I advocating for the health and wellbeing of both my child and other children in a normal and appropriate way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

Ding ding ding

This is social policing, not different from fundamentalist communities.

Which? The performative things (like defending Karen on DCUM at the expense of protecting sexism/ageism/racism)? Or urging white women to band together to support each other?

The first is embarrassing, but I’ll admit to feeling uncomfortable with the second. There are too many ways a majority group banding together could go wrong.

I’m on board with ALL women banding together to support each other. Yes, this would still mean stopping the Karening, but also promoting while not appropriating other standards of beauty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

Ding ding ding

This is social policing, not different from fundamentalist communities.

Which? The performative things (like defending Karen on DCUM at the expense of protecting sexism/ageism/racism)? Or urging white women to band together to support each other?

The first is embarrassing, but I’ll admit to feeling uncomfortable with the second. There are too many ways a majority group banding together could go wrong.

I’m on board with ALL women banding together to support each other. Yes, this would still mean stopping the Karening, but also promoting while not appropriating other standards of beauty.

I'm on board with this too, but the problem is that WOC don't trust white women to stand in solidarity with them (and I don't really blame them for this lack of trust because of our history). But sometimes this lack of trust goes a step further into scape goating. As in this case with Cao's essay and the NPR piece, a general lack of trust towards white women has become "white women are banding together to try and take OUR power back for THEM." Even though when it comes to beauty and fashion standards, no woman of any color has ever really been in power. The power Cao is talking about is the power to be deemed beautiful BY MEN, to be attractive TO MEN. That's the implicit "power" she is so concerned about white women reclaiming, right?

I think white women need to learn to be more supportive of each other and women in general, and to stop this thing where we compete to be the "chosen victim" because that's a booby prize. But I also think we collectively need to stop blaming white women for the entire white supremicist patriarchy structure, because while white women might occupy a higher space in that messed up system than WOC, they don't run the show and never have.

It's like... eyes on the prize. All this time we spend fighting over beauty standards and who is most deserving of male attention? It's in service to patriarchy, full stop. Every time.

I mean, what did Cao get out of her dumb essay? An interview on NPR, increased exposure, and an increased likelihood that if you google Steffi Cao, you'll find out she's a writer who wrote something controversial ($$$). And when she parlays this into her next job, or a book deal, or whatever, who is going to sign the checks? Dollars to donuts, I bet you it's a white man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

This is a standard deflection when men object to complaints about "men" based in things that too many men might do but which aren't really a default aspect of what it means to be a man. In addition to the simple #NotAllMen sarcastic ridicule, there was a response that individual men shouldn't take it personally because "if you don't behave like this, nobody is talking about you."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
* I don't see why people take the whole karen/bbq becky etc. thing personally unless you can see yourself in those actions and then maybe just think about it - when you call the manager - are you exercising privilege or pulling a power play over the person you are interacting with or are you just asking for help?

Of course, ask yourself why you’re sending back a meal and don’t abuse privilege. Nobody disagrees.

But that’s not what’s going on here. You’re deliberately missing the underlying dynamic. Which is to call ANY older white woman who sends back a meal a Karen, whether the meal was bad or not. So that older white women aren’t questioning whether the steak is raw enough to send back, but whether they’ll be called a Karen regardless.

Hope you show your post to whoever you’re trying to impress and that it wins you points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

Ding ding ding

This is social policing, not different from fundamentalist communities.

Which? The performative things (like defending Karen on DCUM at the expense of protecting sexism/ageism/racism)? Or urging white women to band together to support each other?

The first is embarrassing, but I’ll admit to feeling uncomfortable with the second. There are too many ways a majority group banding together could go wrong.

I’m on board with ALL women banding together to support each other. Yes, this would still mean stopping the Karening, but also promoting while not appropriating other standards of beauty.

I'm on board with this too, but the problem is that WOC don't trust white women to stand in solidarity with them (and I don't really blame them for this lack of trust because of our history). But sometimes this lack of trust goes a step further into scape goating. As in this case with Cao's essay and the NPR piece, a general lack of trust towards white women has become "white women are banding together to try and take OUR power back for THEM." Even though when it comes to beauty and fashion standards, no woman of any color has ever really been in power. The power Cao is talking about is the power to be deemed beautiful BY MEN, to be attractive TO MEN. That's the implicit "power" she is so concerned about white women reclaiming, right?

I think white women need to learn to be more supportive of each other and women in general, and to stop this thing where we compete to be the "chosen victim" because that's a booby prize. But I also think we collectively need to stop blaming white women for the entire white supremicist patriarchy structure, because while white women might occupy a higher space in that messed up system than WOC, they don't run the show and never have.

It's like... eyes on the prize. All this time we spend fighting over beauty standards and who is most deserving of male attention? It's in service to patriarchy, full stop. Every time.

I mean, what did Cao get out of her dumb essay? An interview on NPR, increased exposure, and an increased likelihood that if you google Steffi Cao, you'll find out she's a writer who wrote something controversial ($$$). And when she parlays this into her next job, or a book deal, or whatever, who is going to sign the checks? Dollars to donuts, I bet you it's a white man.

Doubt she’ll get a book deal. If you Google “vanilla girl” the trend is already passé and Black women wear beige too. And the idea really is too dumb, unless the publishing house has a really good editor who can shut down the spite and edit out the dumber conclusions (white women should wear black latex).