Restorative Justice is struggling to show success in MCPS according to students, parents

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

But this isn’t necessarily a bad stat. If 85% of calls are resulting in a report, then this means that the calls were justified. That’s actually the mark of good partnership and proper use of valuable resources. Whereas before, 60% of the time the police and policy indicated something different.

DP.. there are delays in calling the police for serious issues because the admin/security are not trained offciers.. Ex. Macgruder shooting victim.

The shooting of two admins in CO is another example of where admins/security aren't prepared to deal with serious security issues.

https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-mayor-removing-school-resource-officers-was-a-mistake/

Denver is a very blue area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

But this isn’t necessarily a bad stat. If 85% of calls are resulting in a report, then this means that the calls were justified. That’s actually the mark of good partnership and proper use of valuable resources. Whereas before, 60% of the time the police and policy indicated something different.

DP.. there are delays in calling the police for serious issues because the admin/security are not trained offciers.. Ex. Macgruder shooting victim.

The shooting of two admins in CO is another example of where admins/security aren't prepared to deal with serious security issues.

https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-mayor-removing-school-resource-officers-was-a-mistake/

Denver is a very blue area.

Just like the shooting in Parkland and Uvalde show that SROs don't make schools safer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

This. I truly don't understand how people can justify the present situation. The current suspension rate for black and brown students hasn't improved, and arrests are up. I also don't think we have to guess which students are most impacted by those arrests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

Maybe that would be true if SROs helped make schools safer, but all the data suggests they only make matters worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Prefacing ‘justice’ only yields injustice. Shouldn’t everyone in a position Education leadership know this??

Matters not… knowledge, proficiency, behavior no longer have value.

Teachers still get paid no matter the result.

Administrators still get paid no matter the result.

Counselors still get paid no matter the result.

Even students and their parents will still get paid no matter the result. That’s where our taxes go and more of them will be going.

Let's get back to good old fashioned Old Testament justice. That'll learn 'em.

[Anonymous]

I'll be honest. I have taught overseas in schools that are very strict. There are very few discipline problems. The US system doesnt make sense to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest. I have taught overseas in schools that are very strict. There are very few discipline problems. The US system doesnt make sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to a lot of parents, as you can see from this thread. It's the progressives pushing for RJ. Unfortunately, MoCo is controlled by them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

But this isn’t necessarily a bad stat. If 85% of calls are resulting in a report, then this means that the calls were justified. That’s actually the mark of good partnership and proper use of valuable resources. Whereas before, 60% of the time the police and policy indicated something different.

DP.. there are delays in calling the police for serious issues because the admin/security are not trained offciers.. Ex. Macgruder shooting victim.

The shooting of two admins in CO is another example of where admins/security aren't prepared to deal with serious security issues.

https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-mayor-removing-school-resource-officers-was-a-mistake/

Denver is a very blue area.

Just like the shooting in Parkland and Uvalde show that SROs don't make schools safer.

Must be why the Denver Mayor wants SROs back. /s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

Maybe that would be true if SROs helped make schools safer, but all the data suggests they only make matters worse.

mcps data shows schools currently without SROs aren't safer.

And actually, MCPS memo prior to SRO being cut indicated that there were pros and cons to SROs, and that in some cases, SROs can be positive. But, Elrich pulled the plug before MCPS could study it more in depth.

And now we have CEO 2.0 because county council and Elrich realized, oops, school violence is out of control.. maybe we should have some cops in some cases in the schools.

[Anonymous]

if more black and brown kids are getting arrested, wouldn't the reason be that they are committing more of crimes that warrant calling the police? MCPS has a code of conduct. certain behaviors will not be tolerated. For many actions, a certain level of discipline is needed to maintain order. these rules should apply to all students. At this point, security cameras in the schools are not a bad idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

Maybe that would be true if SROs helped make schools safer, but all the data suggests they only make matters worse.

mcps data shows schools currently without SROs aren't safer.

And actually, MCPS memo prior to SRO being cut indicated that there were pros and cons to SROs, and that in some cases, SROs can be positive. But, Elrich pulled the plug before MCPS could study it more in depth.

And now we have CEO 2.0 because county council and Elrich realized, oops, school violence is out of control.. maybe we should have some cops in some cases in the schools.

At the board meeting the other week they said the exact opposite, that the incidents are down since they removed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jawando was more focused on the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This sounds like racist weapons are "affecting" black and brown students by hiding in their backpacks.

Since violence is often intraracial, poor enforecment victimizes black and brown students. Elimination of SRO's also makes teachers give more suspensions to preempt problems. Bad management hurts disadvantaged students most.

Maybe that would be true if SROs helped make schools safer, but all the data suggests they only make matters worse.

mcps data shows schools currently without SROs aren't safer.

And actually, MCPS memo prior to SRO being cut indicated that there were pros and cons to SROs, and that in some cases, SROs can be positive. But, Elrich pulled the plug before MCPS could study it more in depth.

And now we have CEO 2.0 because county council and Elrich realized, oops, school violence is out of control.. maybe we should have some cops in some cases in the schools.

At the board meeting the other week they said the exact opposite, that the incidents are down since they removed them.

The calls (incidents) are down but the arrests are up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest. I have taught overseas in schools that are very strict. There are very few discipline problems. The US system doesnt make sense to me.

I was born in the US and attended public school from K-12 and it makes no sense to me either.

Montgomery County is run by intensely progressive liberals. They believe in Restorative Justice instead of Retributive Justice. And they are very anti-police. Just listen to what politicians like Jawando and Elrich have to say.

We get what we vote for and these policies heavily affects our schools and communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll be honest. I have taught overseas in schools that are very strict. There are very few discipline problems. The US system doesnt make sense to me.

I was born in the US and attended public school from K-12 and it makes no sense to me either.

Montgomery County is run by intensely progressive liberals. They believe in Restorative Justice instead of Retributive Justice. And they are very anti-police. Just listen to what politicians like Jawando and Elrich have to say.

We get what we vote for and these policies heavily affects our schools and communities.

It is not Montgomery County. It is pushed by DOJ and DOE threatening school districts that have a racial disparity in discipline.