Restorative Justice is struggling to show success in MCPS according to students, parents

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

It’s terrific that calls are down…as long as actual incidents are down rather than administrators being hesitant to make the call out of fear of repercussions from mcps.

But the incident information remains troubling—particularly since arrests are up.

While I’m all for Jawando’s request for demographic info, I think disproportionately should be anticipated given that we don’t have white and Asian gangs in high schools. Presumably most arrests at school are gang related.

Stephen Alston wasn't in a gang. He's the juvenile who shot his former friend at Magruder. That was just a beef gone wrong between classmates. Period. Most of these kids are not in gangs. But they are fighting among themselves, over drugs or girls or just "cred."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

It’s terrific that calls are down…as long as actual incidents are down rather than administrators being hesitant to make the call out of fear of repercussions from mcps.

But the incident information remains troubling—particularly since arrests are up.

While I’m all for Jawando’s request for demographic info, I think disproportionately should be anticipated given that we don’t have white and Asian gangs in high schools. Presumably most arrests at school are gang related.

Stephen Alston wasn't in a gang. He's the juvenile who shot his former friend at Magruder. That was just a beef gone wrong between classmates. Period. Most of these kids are not in gangs. But they are fighting among themselves, over drugs or girls or just "cred."

That’s 1 of the arrests. Curious about the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

He sounds like a racist.

[Anonymous]

Isn't this what was depicted in the 4th season of The Wire?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

Correct. Calls are down but arrests and incidents are up. That tells me that MCPS is sweeping things under the rug because of RJ and they're not getting enough police support. After seeing the BOE video PP shared, I'm inclined to say that there are definitely benefits to RJ but police presence in the schools is still necessary. You need both. It's also interesting to hear that since security guards report to MCPS, they don't get the same "SRO" training as the "CEOs" today (or SROs of the past).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

Are Asians included in your “black and brown” assessment of disproportionate absenteeism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How and why did "accountability," "consequences" and "discipline" become bad words in our school system? Parents didn't ask for this.

They’re concerned about disproportionate outcomes for different racial groups. There was a meeting last week with BOE members where it was revealed that black and brown students were receiving consequences of suspension in disproportionate numbers to their numbers in the district’s population. These groups also have disproportionate absenteeism. Brenda Wolff essentially took the position that this was due to racism (no mention of the obvious link between poverty and other root causes that contribute to disproportionate outcomes). One of MCPS’s solutions is to change the code of conduct itself, so that various infractions (disrespect, threats, etc.) no longer are eligible for the suspension consequence. So next year it’ll look like MCPS closed the gap for those groups and reduced suspension, but in reality they just obscure the truth by changing the definition. Kind of like honors for all makes it look like they’ve closed the achievement gap but it’s not the actual truth.

Are Asians included in your “black and brown” assessment of disproportionate absenteeism?

No, they are not. They are frequently left out of the stats entirely, because they are focused on whites vs blacks and Hispanics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

He sounds like a racist.

He is a terrible racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

He sounds like a racist.

He is a terrible racist.

Maybe to a RWNJ but the Montgomery county residents who voted for him evidently feel differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

He sounds like a racist.

He is a terrible racist.

Maybe to a RWNJ but the Montgomery county residents who voted for him evidently feel differently.

different poster here. i disagree. i work for the county and we are taught in racial equity training that racism is not about intent. it is about impact.

So these policy changes on discipline and pulling cops out of schools may stem from good intentions. but the IMPACT has been greater racial disparities in discipline and arrests. and nobody talked about what it is doing to victims. there likely are racial disparities there too.

[Anonymous]

Prefacing ‘justice’ only yields injustice. Shouldn’t everyone in a position Education leadership know this??

Matters not… knowledge, proficiency, behavior no longer have value.

Teachers still get paid no matter the result.

Administrators still get paid no matter the result.

Counselors still get paid no matter the result.

Even students and their parents will still get paid no matter the result. That’s where our taxes go and more of them will be going.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's a video on YouTube of the county's working session on these issues yesterday.

Could anyone who watched the video say if they presented opposing views on RJ or was it all rainbows and sunshine?

This was the first of many discussions. The RJ office provided a status and informational update, which was very much rainbows and sunshine. Following this, MCPD presented data on the CEO program and arrests made this year. The county council members then raised numerous questions. Further meetings will be scheduled, potentially in June, during which the council has requested additional data, and suggested that school administrators also be present to provide thoughts on what is working and what is not. With the exception of Jawando, council members expressed concerns about the implementation of RJ. Jawando, on the other hand, was more focused on obtaining arrest data by race/ethnicity and the disproportionate number of suspensions affecting black and brown students. The number of weapon incidents alone in this school year, 218, is a worrying statistic.

This has been his main and only concern since Day 1. That is his platform, all day, every day. He is terrible. He is a fraud and an idiot.

He sounds like a racist.

He is a terrible racist.

Maybe to a RWNJ but the Montgomery county residents who voted for him evidently feel differently.

different poster here. i disagree. i work for the county and we are taught in racial equity training that racism is not about intent. it is about impact.

So these policy changes on discipline and pulling cops out of schools may stem from good intentions. but the IMPACT has been greater racial disparities in discipline and arrests. and nobody talked about what it is doing to victims. there likely are racial disparities there too.

Just so you know - that thing you were taught about disparate impact is an opinion, not a truth. It stems from critical theory and neglects the truth that people do not all behave the same way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SSuspension and referral data does not reflect much in the schools at the moment. The referral process has been minimized or ignored in my cases. Teachers arent even trained on it. Schools cant suspend unless they get approval from central office. Calling police for investigations/ arrests and ambulances for emergencies can't be manipulated easily. So, it is the only useful data in my opinion. MCPS and MoCo admin wants to see RJ as successful and see success in reducing the school to prison pipeline. However, I have a feeling the data doesnt support that possibility yet. It could in the future is RJ is actually implemented, but that is very, very hard to do. It is a relatively lengthy process for the individuals involved and schools have difficulty committing the resources and gaining buy in from students.

THIS! We have physical altercations in my elementary school between students and zero suspensions. About ten students make it feel like the entire school is being help captive by small children. If we suspended as we should, the data would be horrible looking.

So you think suspending these kids would help reduce the problem?

The 5% of students who are repeat offenders “stir the pot” and pull in the 20% of kids who are marginal but see the master manipulators getting away with it. So, poor behavior becomes normalized and makes learning difficult for everyone. Suspension often is a punishment for parents since it inconveniences them. This finally makes them get involved with their kids instead of just dumping them off. Suspension doesn’t help the offenders but it can help the rest of the school function. Some of the worst offenders can basically ruin the day for admin, teachers and other students.

I'm glad your elaborating here, because we're talking about ES kids like 7 year olds.

Not in MCPS. MCPS uses Restorative Justice in MS and HS.

It was used on my elementary school child. It failed miserable. We are still dealing with the fallout from it.

RJ was used at our ES to address bullying and worked wonders.

When the number of arrests are up and when suspension rates for black and brown students are still high with no improvement, then it's not working.

I heard that arrests are way down because they never call the police. Now I don't know what to believe.

You got the second part right. Calls are down (because schools haven't been calling the police as much). The alarming fact though is that arrests are up: https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2023/03/school-safety-update-shows-jump-in-arrests-in-montgomery-county/

At the board meeting, they said RJ had helped reduce these problems because it's preventative. Calls are down because of RJ.

But police reports are up. They may be calling fewer times than last year, but last year something like 40% of calls were significant enough to become police reports. This year it's about 85%. That's why there are more arrests. MCPS seems smarter about why they call, but there still are worse things happening.

But this isn’t necessarily a bad stat. If 85% of calls are resulting in a report, then this means that the calls were justified. That’s actually the mark of good partnership and proper use of valuable resources. Whereas before, 60% of the time the police and policy indicated something different.