Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

Oh and they are super dramatic. There are shortages everywhere including my division of AWS. Maybe stop whining and get a grad degree in something useful???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

And YOU are welcome to try to get a real education and a real job

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

Oh and they are super dramatic. There are shortages everywhere including my division of AWS. Maybe stop whining and get a grad degree in something useful???

I see you didn’t take my offer. Therefore you must be aware it wasn’t a very good one.

Also, can you point out the whining? I work with students, and therefore hear it often. I’m not seeing where I whined above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

And YOU are welcome to try to get a real education and a real job

This is so painfully inadequate as an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ummm...they arent. Not for the education and job requirements. Not by a long shot

Well, the shortages prove otherwise. You’re welcome to fill one of the many vacancies in either of these professions. Then you can come back and tell us how lucky you are in terms of workload, pay, and respect.

And YOU are welcome to try to get a real education and a real job

This is so painfully inadequate as an insult.

They are painfully inadequate, and I feel a little sorry for the individual. We should probably let them get back to their Sunday chores as I am sure their mother needs them to clean up the basement at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

Then please actually "explain" it instead of just complaining. So far I've only seen a lot of griping how you think you deserve more money. Meanwhile the study cited above shows that teachers are actually compensated quite well relative to other comparable professions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

Then please actually "explain" it instead of just complaining. So far I've only seen a lot of griping how you think you deserve more money. Meanwhile the study cited above shows that teachers are actually compensated quite well relative to other comparable professions.

Actually, if you review this thread, you’ll realize that pay is NOT the major concern of teachers posting here. It’s workload. If you reread, you’ll find teachers explaining they work 3-4 extra hours a night, or all day on Saturdays, etc. They explain that they have half an hour a day allotted for all of the “extras” of teaching: planning, grading, attending meetings, attending trainings, responding to emails, updating data, etc. In fact, you will find at least two different teachers saying that they would prefer a more balanced workload than more pay. I do see posts in which teachers say they would appreciate compensation for the 20 or so extra hours a week, perhaps in the form of overtime. I also see teachers say they think they are fairly compensated for what people THINK the job is, but not necessarily for what it REALLY is.

I don’t see complaining or “griping.” I see people trying to explain to non-educators what the job is like and why people are quitting in droves.

As for the study, that’s once voice. I read the whole thing. It’s remarkably opinionated, and thanks to Covid, woefully out of date. All references to a perceived teacher shortage are no longer relevant because of the tremendous hit Covid had on this profession.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it because both occupations are mainly performed by women, and women are not valued as highly as men?

I don't think I'm underpaid as a nurse. I live in the Midwest. My starting salary was kind of low ($28 per hour), but I make decent money now. I have 6 years experience and am making about $120,000 a year. I work 4 12 hour shifts per week. I am paid $38 per hour base pay, with shift differentials. I am paid time and half for every over 40 I work in a week. I also get $30 per hour incentive pay for picking up the extra shift per week. (3 shifts is full time. 4 shifts is one extra shift per week.) My pay for my overtime shifts is $57 per hour for the first 4 hours and $87 per hour for every shift after that.

I also got a $15,000 sign on bonus when I started this job. If I want to leave after 2 years, I could pick up another sign on bonus somewhere else.

If I wanted to be a travel nurse, I could make around $150,000 - $160,000 per year. My friend is a "local traveler" and makes $1100 per 12 hour shift and sets her own schedule.

The benefits are pretty great. My hosptial pays a pension that vests after 5 years. I have good health insurance and every other beneift you could imagine. I get $4500 per year in tuition benefits if I want to continue to advance my education. I am eligible for public service loan forgiveness for my student loans.

The lifestye is also pretty great. I have no work responsibilities if I am not at work. I walk away at the end of my shift and forget about work. I don't answer email. I don't work on things at home. I don't answer work phone calls.

I quit being a lawyer to be an RN. I wasn't the most successful lawyer and am honestly making more money as an RN than I would otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

Then please actually "explain" it instead of just complaining. So far I've only seen a lot of griping how you think you deserve more money. Meanwhile the study cited above shows that teachers are actually compensated quite well relative to other comparable professions.

Actually, if you review this thread, you’ll realize that pay is NOT the major concern of teachers posting here. It’s workload. If you reread, you’ll find teachers explaining they work 3-4 extra hours a night, or all day on Saturdays, etc. They explain that they have half an hour a day allotted for all of the “extras” of teaching: planning, grading, attending meetings, attending trainings, responding to emails, updating data, etc. In fact, you will find at least two different teachers saying that they would prefer a more balanced workload than more pay. I do see posts in which teachers say they would appreciate compensation for the 20 or so extra hours a week, perhaps in the form of overtime. I also see teachers say they think they are fairly compensated for what people THINK the job is, but not necessarily for what it REALLY is.

I don’t see complaining or “griping.” I see people trying to explain to non-educators what the job is like and why people are quitting in droves.

As for the study, that’s once voice. I read the whole thing. It’s remarkably opinionated, and thanks to Covid, woefully out of date. All references to a perceived teacher shortage are no longer relevant because of the tremendous hit Covid had on this profession.

Teaching is no longer a profession that is attractive for the reasons that it once was, which is why there is a shortage. There is no way to pinpoint any one reason and I am sure that the reasons change according to the region. However, there is a shortage and no one can deny that, but how they chose to address it and whether those solutions are successful remains to be seen. The only way that I see to change the tide is to limit the job choices of women so they are again forced to choose from only a couple of careers because let's face it - that's the reason that the profession is dominated by women and also suffers lower than average pay when considering the education required.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it because both occupations are mainly performed by women, and women are not valued as highly as men?

Huh? Nurses don’t make peanuts. Past few years I have met many nurses doing $80-100/hour. Esp if they are travel nurses.

This has nothing to do with gender! The amount one gets paid for work is correlated to other things but I will not go into that since you brought gender into the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A teacher around here can expect to make $90k a few years in for essentially 9 months of work (given the endless summers plus all the other holidays). That means average salaries are really more like $120k on an annualized basis. Plus the value of the pension that will easily bump it to a $130-140k equivalent. Plus generous benefits of all sorts. Pretty good for a union job with 100% job security and where you get to go home at 3pm!

Where is “around here”? How many years are “a few years in”?

This ranks right there with the “retire after 20 years, free healthcare, union negotiated” posts.

Oh give it up, that trope about the underpaid teacher is getting seriously old.

https://www.aei.org/articles/the-truth-about-teacher-pay/

"It is clear that the widely cited 21% teacher salary gap is a meaningless statistic. Furthermore, predictions generated by the underpaid-teacher hypothesis fail to be borne out by the data: Teachers rarely quit their jobs and, when they do, rarely cite low pay as the reason; only a tiny percentage of teachers’ salaries come from second jobs, and that percentage has been falling over time; there is no generalized teacher shortage; most teachers live comfortable middle-class lives; and teaching is not more stressful or time-consuming than the average job. Over and over again, we fail to find evidence that teachers as a group are underpaid.

"It is more likely that workers in public education are on average overpaid, in the sense that they could not earn as much in the private sector. Studies of teachers who switch jobs and comparisons of teaching to other occupations with the same BLS skill requirements suggest that the teacher wage penalty is close to zero. If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

"If that is true, then incorporating fringe benefits as measured in the NIPA would boost total teacher compensation about 18% above private-sector levels. This premium comes before adding the value of job security and the predictability of regular raises, which economic theory predicts would be offset by lower wages."

Just because they're fairly compensated doesn't mean the whining will stop anytime soon. Always some other gripe

Again… please point to the whining?
As teachers, we know what whining sounds like. I haven’t read any on this thread. There is a difference between “whining” and “explaining.”

Then please actually "explain" it instead of just complaining. So far I've only seen a lot of griping how you think you deserve more money. Meanwhile the study cited above shows that teachers are actually compensated quite well relative to other comparable professions.

Actually, if you review this thread, you’ll realize that pay is NOT the major concern of teachers posting here. It’s workload. If you reread, you’ll find teachers explaining they work 3-4 extra hours a night, or all day on Saturdays, etc. They explain that they have half an hour a day allotted for all of the “extras” of teaching: planning, grading, attending meetings, attending trainings, responding to emails, updating data, etc. In fact, you will find at least two different teachers saying that they would prefer a more balanced workload than more pay. I do see posts in which teachers say they would appreciate compensation for the 20 or so extra hours a week, perhaps in the form of overtime. I also see teachers say they think they are fairly compensated for what people THINK the job is, but not necessarily for what it REALLY is.

I don’t see complaining or “griping.” I see people trying to explain to non-educators what the job is like and why people are quitting in droves.

As for the study, that’s once voice. I read the whole thing. It’s remarkably opinionated, and thanks to Covid, woefully out of date. All references to a perceived teacher shortage are no longer relevant because of the tremendous hit Covid had on this profession.

Teaching is no longer a profession that is attractive for the reasons that it once was, which is why there is a shortage. There is no way to pinpoint any one reason and I am sure that the reasons change according to the region. However, there is a shortage and no one can deny that, but how they chose to address it and whether those solutions are successful remains to be seen. The only way that I see to change the tide is to limit the job choices of women so they are again forced to choose from only a couple of careers because let's face it - that's the reason that the profession is dominated by women and also suffers lower than average pay when considering the education required.

The solution is to lesson the workload. That’s the *only* solution. Teachers should get at least half their work day to do the behind-the-scenes work required of the job. Planning, grading, report writing, trainings, correspondence, meetings… right now teachers are supposed to do all of this on their off-hours. It’s unacceptable. Reports from people fleeing the profession rarely mention pay as the reason for leaving. They mention workload and disrespect (from students, parents, and admin). Fix those.

We have plenty of people qualified and able to teach in this country. They just aren’t teaching because they made the easy decision to quit. Get them back by offering better conditions.