Jeff Selingo on people skipping "target schools"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here are the US News Top 100 National Universities (private only). Not talking SLACs. I broke them into three groups but they stay in ranking order, all of group 2 is higher ranked than group 3.

If you could, almost all would pay for Group 1.
I agree that Group 2 is more and more popular, with UMC families and they are often choosing ED to lock in a slot, when they think they won't get into Group 1.
Of Group 3, which would you pay full price? I think this is the group that Jeff Selingo is talking about people preferring a state school, though some of these schools are extremely popular.

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth,MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago, Rice

Group 2: Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU St.Louis, USC, NYU, BC, Tufts, BU

Group 3: Lehigh, Rochester, Wake Forest, CWRU, Northeastern, Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Villanova, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Good list. I’d pay for Group 1 and Group 2 full price. Most of Group 3 gives merit. I’d be fine paying Group 3 with a discounted rate.

Even if the discounted rate all-in was close to $70k? Tuition, room & board, university program fees?

DP. IME, the “discounted” rate was $45-50k (all in). It was remarkably consistent from all schools DC was admitted to. Some smaller schools give a discount to everyone that is around $15k, but I’m thinking of more when I think of “merit” aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many of us went to state schools and don't see the appeal of the SLAC. Read that again - don't see the appeal. It's not that they cost too much.
The environment is not what we want for our kid.

If kid got into an Ivy, had worked so hard that they succeeded in getting into an Ivy, I think that's the tipping point. We would accept that they know more than we do.

I went to both HYPS and flagship state schools and absolutely see the value of a SLAC. If you are unable to see the appeal of a SLAC for some students, that speaks to a gap in your education rather than reflecting the actual value of a SLAC.

I went to Duke and wholeheartedly agree. I look at the amazing experience that my DC is having at a top SLAC and compare it to my own. I’d choose a top-ranked SLAC over Duke without question if given the opportunity. Yale alum husband feels the same. IYKYK

Princeton alum here and I agree. Would rather see both my kids at SLACs.

The market doesn't agree with you much.
It all depends on the kids. My kids would not like SLACs.

Agree about your kids assuming they are as ignorant on the matter. Apple — tree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree - this is our plan.

I have been saying for a few years that I think grad school is the new college, so it makes sense to go to a state college and save some $ for grad school.

I honestly don't understand this logic at all. So many grad schools / grad degrees produce kids with poor outcomes. So many jobs/industries don't care about a grad degree whatsoever.

This is another skewed DMV perspective that worked for you, but you can't rely on it holding going forward.

I can think of professions where graduate school is essential (medicine, law, etc). Maybe you mean graduate school isn’t *always* a good idea?

Yes, but there are many underemployed or unemployed law school grads. The median income for a doctor really isn’t all that great, so it’s not really a great payoff. Vet school is another bad financial decision. Grad degrees in the humanities if you are actually paying are usually a horrible decision.

No way I am planning for my kid to attend grad school before they have even set foot at undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree - this is our plan.

I have been saying for a few years that I think grad school is the new college, so it makes sense to go to a state college and save some $ for grad school.

I honestly don't understand this logic at all. So many grad schools / grad degrees produce kids with poor outcomes. So many jobs/industries don't care about a grad degree whatsoever.

This is another skewed DMV perspective that worked for you, but you can't rely on it holding going forward.

I don't interact with too many people without post-grad degrees. Came to DC from NYC, so I guess it’s the crowd. My oldest is interested in engineering - and my dad and his dad were engineers and both had master’s. My dad’s company paid for him to get it (probably my grandfather’s did too). But I don’t think either of them thought it was worthless.

I don't understand this sentiment either. I grew up in one of the poorest states in the US. Most of my smart high school friends didn't have families who could afford to pay for private colleges (also college admission information wasn't as widely available on the internet back then). All of my high school friends who have since then secured good jobs and moved out of said poor state and into HCOL cities with their professional jobs have graduate degrees from top ranked schools.

I am not understanding you. Are you saying your HS friends had to go to crappy undergrad so they needed to go to a top ranked grad school in order to be successful?

If so…I mean wouldn’t you also draw the conclusion that if they had attended a decent undergrad they may not have needed those graduate degrees?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

My own view is that there are only 10-15 schools that are really national…that you will find a decent number of alums in any industry anywhere in the country (and most prominent international cities).

Beyond that group, schools might be known for a specific major that translates nationally or alums are concentrated in certain industries (though tends to be regional) or alums are concentrated in a specific region across many industries.

My kid mentioned they were interested in University of Washington (non-cs and non-stem)….i said great option but plan to start your career in Seattle or Portland (would love if it translates to Vancouver Canada but don’t know)…don’t plan to just come back to the DMV.

[Anonymous]

I moved to dc area from abroad and the first time somebody was going on about how their kid was going to “tech” I said “oh, you mean like MIT?” because I had never heard of Virginia tech. Its not really all that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My older child went to a lower-ranked SLAC with a lot of merit after the higher-ranked SLACs did not offer any. Now that it is my next child's turn, we are skipping over a lot of target SLACs because I knew they will not offer any money. There was no use getting hopes up or wasting valuable time applying. They also applied to a lot more state schools than their older sibling. I just don't think those second-tier SLACs are worth the full-pay cost when there are lots of great SLACs offering merit.

I feel like a lot of 3rd tier and below SLACs...the whole "merit" aid is BS. Basically, they quote a rack rate and give literally everybody merit aid. For some reason, they still want to keep that rack rate high.

I guess, if you are fine skipping over 1st tier and 2nd tier SLACs...why not just pick a Bridgewater College that decided to drop their tuition by 60% because they were literally giving everyone a 60% discount anyway.

There are many top-50 LACs that do this -- give $20k-30k in merit aid to everyone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. I wouldn't consider those third-tier.

OK...so it isn't really "merit" aid. It's they don't want to reduce tuition and I guess make everyone feel like they are special.

Well, it's "merit aid" in that these schools are selective and only give it to those whom they deem worthy of admission. But regardless, it still means that for those kids who won't get financial aid, these top-50 SLACs are much less expensive than the SLACs that offer no merit aid. You don't have to go to the "third tier" to get this benefit.

Colleges are slowly admitting that their tuition costs have so far outstripped inflation they're not sustainable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that lowering the tuition costs even lets them all break even, but I guess high interest rates have helped a few endowments lately.

The gravy train that was free loans for kids stopped over ten years ago. That was part of what ran costs up in the first place, and low interest rates kept debt cheap enough to have it toddle along a bit longer.

Now we've got an economically polarized country and a pinched "middle" class, by which I mean us low six-figure wage earners, many of whom are still paying off our own student loans--never mind taking on more PLUS loans for our kids.

People are fleeing to state schools... except state schools aren't that cheap. My friend is looking at 55k coa for one--and that's with merit. Maryland schools are at 30K coa. And what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many.

There's a pretty easy predictor that works for real estate, financial markets, life: when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble.

Pursue something else.

Hypothetically, let's consider: what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years? Do you think any of these "government indoctrination centers" (aka state schools) are going to survive with any semblance of what they are now? Looks what's happened in Florida, West Virginia, New Hampshire already. And look what's happening now, even at the ivies, where groupthink seems to rule the day.

The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history.

The price adjustment is coming for all schools, be it as merit or as a tuition cut. I think we're over the arms race of new gyms and visitor centers and Dubai campuses. I am optimistic we can return to something that colleges are supposed to be for: educating well-rounded, civic adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My older child went to a lower-ranked SLAC with a lot of merit after the higher-ranked SLACs did not offer any. Now that it is my next child's turn, we are skipping over a lot of target SLACs because I knew they will not offer any money. There was no use getting hopes up or wasting valuable time applying. They also applied to a lot more state schools than their older sibling. I just don't think those second-tier SLACs are worth the full-pay cost when there are lots of great SLACs offering merit.

I feel like a lot of 3rd tier and below SLACs...the whole "merit" aid is BS. Basically, they quote a rack rate and give literally everybody merit aid. For some reason, they still want to keep that rack rate high.

I guess, if you are fine skipping over 1st tier and 2nd tier SLACs...why not just pick a Bridgewater College that decided to drop their tuition by 60% because they were literally giving everyone a 60% discount anyway.

There are many top-50 LACs that do this -- give $20k-30k in merit aid to everyone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. I wouldn't consider those third-tier.

OK...so it isn't really "merit" aid. It's they don't want to reduce tuition and I guess make everyone feel like they are special.

Well, it's "merit aid" in that these schools are selective and only give it to those whom they deem worthy of admission. But regardless, it still means that for those kids who won't get financial aid, these top-50 SLACs are much less expensive than the SLACs that offer no merit aid. You don't have to go to the "third tier" to get this benefit.

Colleges are slowly admitting that their tuition costs have so far outstripped inflation they're not sustainable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that lowering the tuition costs even lets them all break even, but I guess high interest rates have helped a few endowments lately.

The gravy train that was free loans for kids stopped over ten years ago. That was part of what ran costs up in the first place, and low interest rates kept debt cheap enough to have it toddle along a bit longer.

Now we've got an economically polarized country and a pinched "middle" class, by which I mean us low six-figure wage earners, many of whom are still paying off our own student loans--never mind taking on more PLUS loans for our kids.

People are fleeing to state schools... except state schools aren't that cheap. My friend is looking at 55k coa for one--and that's with merit. Maryland schools are at 30K coa. And what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many.

There's a pretty easy predictor that works for real estate, financial markets, life: when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble.

Pursue something else.

Hypothetically, let's consider: what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years? Do you think any of these "government indoctrination centers" (aka state schools) are going to survive with any semblance of what they are now? Looks what's happened in Florida, West Virginia, New Hampshire already. And look what's happening now, even at the ivies, where groupthink seems to rule the day.

The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history.

The price adjustment is coming for all schools, be it as merit or as a tuition cut. I think we're over the arms race of new gyms and visitor centers and Dubai campuses. I am optimistic we can return to something that colleges are supposed to be for: educating well-rounded, civic adults.

Can't wait

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many of us went to state schools and don't see the appeal of the SLAC. Read that again - don't see the appeal. It's not that they cost too much.
The environment is not what we want for our kid.

If kid got into an Ivy, had worked so hard that they succeeded in getting into an Ivy, I think that's the tipping point. We would accept that they know more than we do.

I went to both HYPS and flagship state schools and absolutely see the value of a SLAC. If you are unable to see the appeal of a SLAC for some students, that speaks to a gap in your education rather than reflecting the actual value of a SLAC.

I went to Duke and wholeheartedly agree. I look at the amazing experience that my DC is having at a top SLAC and compare it to my own. I’d choose a top-ranked SLAC over Duke without question if given the opportunity. Yale alum husband feels the same. IYKYK

Princeton alum here and I agree. Would rather see both my kids at SLACs.

The market doesn't agree with you much.
It all depends on the kids. My kids would not like SLACs.

The imaginary market in your head, maybe?

What do you mean imaninary??
It's realy business and people are paying real money.

I have no idea what you mean about the market agreeing with you that SLACs aren’t liked, because obviously the enrollment and applications numbers show otherwise. Therefore the market must be imaginary and in your head.

What do you mean?? National private schools get way way more applicants and enrollment.
??

Oh my God whatever education you had is appalling. Here is a hint: think very, very carefully about why a SMALL liberal arts college might enroll fewer students than a national private university. See if you can solve that difficult problem. I even put an important word in caps for you to help. 🤔🤔🤔

It’s a tough one, I know.

Demand is much weaker.

Demand is much weaker for many premium products, in part because the masses don't know how good they are, or what they can do. The best schools in America, in terms of providing an academic experience, are ones you've probably never heard of.

[Anonymous]

Well reasoned argument

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

Why isn't UMiami on this list? It's better than the group 4 schools.

UMiami absolutely should be in the 3s.

[Anonymous]

Yeah. This is why so many high stat kids are a flagships.