Jeff Selingo on people skipping "target schools"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah. This is why so many high stat kids are a flagships.

Because their parents don't know any better?

Yes, that is why.

Look, let me explain IB and biglaw to you, in terms of recruiting. They come to your big school, they interview, they make their picks.

Those kids aren't set for life. They're just in another competitive pool. They get winnowed away by 80 per cent or more in the first few years. They take lesser jobs. They move back in with their folks. They go to graduate school. It's far from a sure thing, and that's true across the board for professional recruitment.

Come at it sideways with the kind of connections you can make at a SLAC or a smaller school, you'll do a lot better.

[Anonymous]

I hear this last PP but are you saying connections cannot be had at larger schools? Like if my kid was at UCLA, Michigan, etc, wouldn't they make good connections to help with recruiting? The sheer size and abilities within those networks seem meaningful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

I thought the list was just straight out of USNWR in order, then randomly broken into groups to annoy the people from the schools listed first on next tier down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My older child went to a lower-ranked SLAC with a lot of merit after the higher-ranked SLACs did not offer any. Now that it is my next child's turn, we are skipping over a lot of target SLACs because I knew they will not offer any money. There was no use getting hopes up or wasting valuable time applying. They also applied to a lot more state schools than their older sibling. I just don't think those second-tier SLACs are worth the full-pay cost when there are lots of great SLACs offering merit.

I feel like a lot of 3rd tier and below SLACs...the whole "merit" aid is BS. Basically, they quote a rack rate and give literally everybody merit aid. For some reason, they still want to keep that rack rate high.

I guess, if you are fine skipping over 1st tier and 2nd tier SLACs...why not just pick a Bridgewater College that decided to drop their tuition by 60% because they were literally giving everyone a 60% discount anyway.

There are many top-50 LACs that do this -- give $20k-30k in merit aid to everyone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. I wouldn't consider those third-tier.

OK...so it isn't really "merit" aid. It's they don't want to reduce tuition and I guess make everyone feel like they are special.

Well, it's "merit aid" in that these schools are selective and only give it to those whom they deem worthy of admission. But regardless, it still means that for those kids who won't get financial aid, these top-50 SLACs are much less expensive than the SLACs that offer no merit aid. You don't have to go to the "third tier" to get this benefit.

Colleges are slowly admitting that their tuition costs have so far outstripped inflation they're not sustainable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that lowering the tuition costs even lets them all break even, but I guess high interest rates have helped a few endowments lately.

The gravy train that was free loans for kids stopped over ten years ago. That was part of what ran costs up in the first place, and low interest rates kept debt cheap enough to have it toddle along a bit longer.

Now we've got an economically polarized country and a pinched "middle" class, by which I mean us low six-figure wage earners, many of whom are still paying off our own student loans--never mind taking on more PLUS loans for our kids.

People are fleeing to state schools... except state schools aren't that cheap. My friend is looking at 55k coa for one--and that's with merit. Maryland schools are at 30K coa. And what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many.

There's a pretty easy predictor that works for real estate, financial markets, life: when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble.

Pursue something else.

Hypothetically, let's consider: what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years? Do you think any of these "government indoctrination centers" (aka state schools) are going to survive with any semblance of what they are now? Looks what's happened in Florida, West Virginia, New Hampshire already. And look what's happening now, even at the ivies, where groupthink seems to rule the day.

The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history.

The price adjustment is coming for all schools, be it as merit or as a tuition cut. I think we're over the arms race of new gyms and visitor centers and Dubai campuses. I am optimistic we can return to something that colleges are supposed to be for: educating well-rounded, civic adults.

"what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many."

There are too many humanities programs. Teaching humanities is a jobs programs for humanities PhDs, who have been massively overproduced for decades. But, on the second point, I'm in a STEM company and I can assure you the outlook is very very strong.

"when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble. Pursue something else."

OK so you're one of these people who advises kids to become plumbers or electricians instead of going to college? If not, what is the "something else"?

"The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history."

You can get a solid general education at a much cheaper state school. Yes, with writing and history. The market for SLACs that do the same thing as public universities for twice the price is going to collapse for anything below a T20 school. And what is that solid general education going to lead to again?

"what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years?"

What did Trump do to undermine or starve the university system from 2017-2020? Nothing that I can recall. What can he even do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I moved to dc area from abroad and the first time somebody was going on about how their kid was going to “tech” I said “oh, you mean like MIT?” because I had never heard of Virginia tech. Its not really all that.

It’s no MIT but there it is, in the T50, and tuition is $12k per year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My older child went to a lower-ranked SLAC with a lot of merit after the higher-ranked SLACs did not offer any. Now that it is my next child's turn, we are skipping over a lot of target SLACs because I knew they will not offer any money. There was no use getting hopes up or wasting valuable time applying. They also applied to a lot more state schools than their older sibling. I just don't think those second-tier SLACs are worth the full-pay cost when there are lots of great SLACs offering merit.

I feel like a lot of 3rd tier and below SLACs...the whole "merit" aid is BS. Basically, they quote a rack rate and give literally everybody merit aid. For some reason, they still want to keep that rack rate high.

I guess, if you are fine skipping over 1st tier and 2nd tier SLACs...why not just pick a Bridgewater College that decided to drop their tuition by 60% because they were literally giving everyone a 60% discount anyway.

There are many top-50 LACs that do this -- give $20k-30k in merit aid to everyone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. I wouldn't consider those third-tier.

OK...so it isn't really "merit" aid. It's they don't want to reduce tuition and I guess make everyone feel like they are special.

Well, it's "merit aid" in that these schools are selective and only give it to those whom they deem worthy of admission. But regardless, it still means that for those kids who won't get financial aid, these top-50 SLACs are much less expensive than the SLACs that offer no merit aid. You don't have to go to the "third tier" to get this benefit.

Colleges are slowly admitting that their tuition costs have so far outstripped inflation they're not sustainable. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that lowering the tuition costs even lets them all break even, but I guess high interest rates have helped a few endowments lately.

The gravy train that was free loans for kids stopped over ten years ago. That was part of what ran costs up in the first place, and low interest rates kept debt cheap enough to have it toddle along a bit longer.

Now we've got an economically polarized country and a pinched "middle" class, by which I mean us low six-figure wage earners, many of whom are still paying off our own student loans--never mind taking on more PLUS loans for our kids.

People are fleeing to state schools... except state schools aren't that cheap. My friend is looking at 55k coa for one--and that's with merit. Maryland schools are at 30K coa. And what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many.

There's a pretty easy predictor that works for real estate, financial markets, life: when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble.

Pursue something else.

Hypothetically, let's consider: what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years? Do you think any of these "government indoctrination centers" (aka state schools) are going to survive with any semblance of what they are now? Looks what's happened in Florida, West Virginia, New Hampshire already. And look what's happening now, even at the ivies, where groupthink seems to rule the day.

The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history.

The price adjustment is coming for all schools, be it as merit or as a tuition cut. I think we're over the arms race of new gyms and visitor centers and Dubai campuses. I am optimistic we can return to something that colleges are supposed to be for: educating well-rounded, civic adults.

"what are you getting with a state school? Slashed budgets, slashed programs, humanities programs gone because they're not profitable, budgets and programs weighted entirely to STEM and sports... I'm really not sure how many people you all think it takes to build or fix a robot, but I suspect it's not very many."

There are too many humanities programs. Teaching humanities is a jobs programs for humanities PhDs, who have been massively overproduced for decades. But, on the second point, I'm in a STEM company and I can assure you the outlook is very very strong.

I am sure you can assure me of that. But I doubt you can explain why to a layperson, or present your work in a historical context, or understand the ramifications of your tech, or explain how it's funded. I'm also not convinced you know how to tie your own shoes, or really go into depth explaining any topic beyond telling people they are "wrong." That's evident from your facile argument.

"when everyone is rushing off a cliff chasing the Big Shiny Thing, you've passed peak bubble. Pursue something else."

OK so you're one of these people who advises kids to become plumbers or electricians instead of going to college? If not, what is the "something else"?

Are you one of those men who likes to explain how 'The Last Jedi' is bad for six hours to people who don't care? I have as much evidence of that. Maybe more, because you truly do seem like one. Look at you mansplaining the humanities, a collection of disciplines you know nothing about. Are you going to explain IB HL next? One assumes.

"The SLACs are going to make it through this, I think. They offer individualized attention, a solid general education. They teach rhetoric and writing and history. A lot of you could stand to learn something about history."

You can get a solid general education at a much cheaper state school. Yes, with writing and history. The market for SLACs that do the same thing as public universities for twice the price is going to collapse for anything below a T20 school. And what is that solid general education going to lead to again?

As I said, how many people do you think it takes to fix a robot? And what do they do with their spare time? Watch game shows? Fantasy football? Indeed, your life sounds so rewarding. Perhaps we are all jealous.

Oh, yeah and the thing is: state schools aren't cheaper. Not OOS. Not with merit. They offer less. Do I want my kid to go to night school at UMD because it's so prestigious for 30k? 60k oos? Let me think for five seconds... Hrm, nope.

"what do you think will happen if Trump (and/or GOP) win next election? What if they have 4-8 years?"

What did Trump do to undermine or starve the university system from 2017-2020? Nothing that I can recall. What can he even do?

With your limited understanding of human nature, politics, and history, I'm not at all surprised you'd ask. Hey. At least you're asking questions instead of more wrongheaded explaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hear this last PP but are you saying connections cannot be had at larger schools? Like if my kid was at UCLA, Michigan, etc, wouldn't they make good connections to help with recruiting? The sheer size and abilities within those networks seem meaningful.

They can be, of course. My husband went to a huge law school, got recruited by several firms, got his first job because one partner was an alum who also taught a class at his law school. But then he entered with all the other first-years, and that's a process designed to make most fail. He did fine, but it's a hell of a way to live, watching everyone get laid off and then seeing a new crop of shiny fresh faces come in.

Some of you like that, of course. It appeals to your inner Howard Roarke.

But if you're invested in seeing life as a series of zero-sum games that you are sure you'll win, how different are you from the guy who buys a lottery ticket every day with his gas? Not as much as you think.

Connections at smaller schools can be just, if not more, meaningful. Your professors are more likely to know you. Alumni networks are a lot tighter. And opportunities, when they happen, are more tailored than cattle calls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

I thought the list was just straight out of USNWR in order, then randomly broken into groups to annoy the people from the schools listed first on next tier down.

Well that’s probably completely accurate. 🤣🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

I thought the list was just straight out of USNWR in order, then randomly broken into groups to annoy the people from the schools listed first on next tier down.

Well that’s probably completely accurate. 🤣🤣

It is hilarious how people on this board, self-admitted STEM majors, don't seem to understand the arbitrary nature of US News rankings, and how little a 5-10 spread really means. They have made it quasi-mystical, "BC must be a good school because it is 30! BU is bad because it is 40!"*

*I don't pay enough attention to those schools to know their real ranks, don't yell at me, pedants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Revised

Group 1: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Northwestern, U Chicago

Group 2: Rice, Vanderbilt, ND, Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, WashU, USC, NYU

Group 3: Wake Forest, BU, BC, Tufts, Northeastern, Lehigh, Rochester, CWRU, Villanova,

Group 4: Brandeis, RPI, Santa Clara, GW, Syracuse, Tulane, Pepperdine, Stevens Inst. Tech, WPI, Marquette, Fordham, SMU, Baylor, Gonzaga, LMU, Drexel, RIT, TCU, USD

I always think the unconscious east coast regional bias on DCUM is so funny. These groups (and the other PPs above you) are the grouping of a specific group of anxious east coasters. For instance there are very few Californian students and employers that would rank Lehigh over (say) Santa Clara. The thought is incomprehensible. I don’t think a lot of California employers know Lehigh exists.

Santa Clara has 50% acceptance rate

Current USN&WR ranking
Lehigh: 47
Santa Clara: 60

Which really just goes to show how useless the rankings are when it comes to the massive numbers of students on the west coast.

Feel free to continue to take the position that California students, most of whom want to work in California, will pick Lehigh because some ranking says it is better.

The regional delusion is real, I guess.

Santa Clara received 18,844 application for class of 2027
Acceptance rate 50%
Yield 17%

It's just not it.




It's just not it.

Okay, sure. Honestly you people are hopeless. Continue believing west coast kids or employers would ever in a million years pick Lehigh over Santa Clara if you want. 🤦🤦

Santa Clara has great West Coast placement. If I planned to work in SV or CA in general I would definitely choose over Lehigh.

Would choose the opposite if I wanted to work on East Coast…especially Northeast.

Would anyone try to argue otherwise?

The PP who is trying to insist that her nonsense groups have nationwide relevance would.

I thought the list was just straight out of USNWR in order, then randomly broken into groups to annoy the people from the schools listed first on next tier down.

Well that’s probably completely accurate. 🤣🤣

It is hilarious how people on this board, self-admitted STEM majors, don't seem to understand the arbitrary nature of US News rankings, and how little a 5-10 spread really means. They have made it quasi-mystical, "BC must be a good school because it is 30! BU is bad because it is 40!"*

*I don't pay enough attention to those schools to know their real ranks, don't yell at me, pedants.

+100
It’s kinda sad how the ranking bounce around, shifting by just a point with different methodologies, messing with people’s perception.

Maybe we need to delve into the details a bit more and grasp the context.

[Anonymous]

Boston College is ranked 39 and BU is 42. This isn't surprising as they're both peer schools. I consider peers 5 above and 5 below. What's surprising is Tufts at 40. Tufts has traditionally been considered a higher tier than these other 2, but I don't think that's the case anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Boston College is ranked 39 and BU is 42. This isn't surprising as they're both peer schools. I consider peers 5 above and 5 below. What's surprising is Tufts at 40. Tufts has traditionally been considered a higher tier than these other 2, but I don't think that's the case anymore.

Did you read the comment before yours or are you trying to prove us right? Lol.

[Anonymous]

There are kids out there getting good college results especially when picking a good selection of schools. For high stats kids there are schools between 25-50 like BC and Richmond who offer very generous scholarships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are kids out there getting good college results especially when picking a good selection of schools. For high stats kids there are schools between 25-50 like BC and Richmond who offer very generous scholarships.

I mean, in my opinion that's what those high stats are good for: getting money to study at a very good school in a new and interesting place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d say Case is a merit- giving school. It was actually slightly less for my engineering student to go there (with merit) than Pitt OOS.

W&M is another odd one on that list--it's a public school that attracts a lot of UMC families.

What a random gratuitous mention