How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
AAP isn't supposed to be about hard work, it's supposed to be about intelligence - that's why the test are done in early elementary and focus on cognitive abilities and not acquired knowledge. That's also why some people have a problem with it- hard work is explicitly not rewarded, intelligence, regardless of whether it's paired with hard work, is.

Agree on the first point, but disagree on the second. Kids who attend academic enrichment classes are likely to be ahead of their peers and likewise score higher on the CogAT just from exposure to higher level math, logic, and analogies. CogAT is an imperfect test and is certainly not an intelligence test. Hardworking kids who are ahead are likely to produce nice work samples and get a high GBRS from the teacher because they are advanced and very easy to teach. Also, many of the kids are specifically prepping for the CogAT, which will increase their scores quite a bit. It's not at all hard for a hardworking, above average child to get accepted into AAP. At least half of the kids in AAP are exactly that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
AAP isn't supposed to be about hard work, it's supposed to be about intelligence - that's why the test are done in early elementary and focus on cognitive abilities and not acquired knowledge. That's also why some people have a problem with it- hard work is explicitly not rewarded, intelligence, regardless of whether it's paired with hard work, is.

Agree on the first point, but disagree on the second. Kids who attend academic enrichment classes are likely to be ahead of their peers and likewise score higher on the CogAT just from exposure to higher level math, logic, and analogies. CogAT is an imperfect test and is certainly not an intelligence test. Hardworking kids who are ahead are likely to produce nice work samples and get a high GBRS from the teacher because they are advanced and very easy to teach. Also, many of the kids are specifically prepping for the CogAT, which will increase their scores quite a bit. It's not at all hard for a hardworking, above average child to get accepted into AAP. At least half of the kids in AAP are exactly that.

COGAT is administered in second grade. Any child in enrichment (kiddie test prep?) by then is a reflection of the parents, mainly of the parents even knowing that there is outside test prep for that age, and not the kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this country to do well, you either have to be White or bust your ass like Asians and get good/prestigious education.

Asian students are doing well around the globe. Why look at TJ? Look at all schools in DMV, country, world and Asian-Americans are at the top.

Now, if you are White, you really don't have to be good in studies. Oh well!

I'm white, and I agree with you that as a whole, Asians work a lot harder than white people or any other groups. That's why they're overrepresented in AAP and TJ. One important question to consider is whether AAP and/or TJ are intended for the kids who are the most ahead through hard work, or whether they're intended for the kids who are naturally the smartest. There's going to be some degree of culture clash on that question, since (white) American culture generally prizes natural aptitude over hard work, while Asian culture generally prizes the hard work over the natural aptitude.

We've seen on this forum that many white parents feel that their smart kids deserve to be on top, and they're upset that other kids are working harder and thus doing better than their kid. For TJ, the obvious solution is free prep classes run by FCPS for all, but I don't think a lot of the non-Asians would be satisfied with that. They don't want their kids to do prep activities and catch up with the Asians. They want the Asians to stop putting their kids in prep classes, so their own bright children will shine more without the hard work.

I think a lot of this is true but I also think that what white and asian parents seem to have in common in this area with regard to AAP/TJ is the sharing of information and resources in a way that excludes other groups. At the same time other groups do not have the same access to knowledge which results in less successful applying and access to AAP/TJ.

I'm not asian or white but very much involved with our children's education overall and day to day. Even given that, I had never heard or nor knew of prepping for things like the NNAT and CogAT. I had never even heard of those tests until we got the sores back. By the time I realized that I could put together a parent recommendation and that these were the tests that determined whether a kid was in pool, I had no idea what my kid's NNAT score was, couldnt find it and had about 1 month (during the Xmas season) to get together a parent package. Thankfully my kid scored in the 99th percentile and was automatically put in pool and accepted in AAP in the first round. Another thing is that I had no idea how many things my child was eligible for with scores like this and I was really annoyed with the school for not flagging it for me as a parent. I've since signed my kid up for lots of other enrichment opportunities but that is only because i've stumbled into finding those things. There isnt a community of people sharing those resources like (I believe) white and asian families do.

I would suggest it’s concentrated by both race and resources. I’m white, but my at the time LMC parents wouldn’t have known about WISC or GT had it not been for one specific teacher in elementary school who recommended they have me re-evaluated because I was a nervous test-taker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
COGAT is administered in second grade. Any child in enrichment (kiddie test prep?) by then is a reflection of the parents, mainly of the parents even knowing that there is outside test prep for that age, and not the kid.

Well, yeah, but many people buy workbooks for the CogAT and NNAT on Amazon, find online resources, or even put their 1st and rising 2nd graders in prep classes. All of the parents at my bus stop went with the Amazon workbooks and free online resources route, but they certainly did prep for the CogAT. Prepping is almost certainly a widespread thing, since 10% of FCPS kids score within the top 2% nationally, and we honestly aren't that much more gifted than anywhere else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In this country to do well, you either have to be White or bust your ass like Asians and get good/prestigious education.

Asian students are doing well around the globe. Why look at TJ? Look at all schools in DMV, country, world and Asian-Americans are at the top.

Now, if you are White, you really don't have to be good in studies. Oh well!

I'm white, and I agree with you that as a whole, Asians work a lot harder than white people or any other groups. That's why they're overrepresented in AAP and TJ. One important question to consider is whether AAP and/or TJ are intended for the kids who are the most ahead through hard work, or whether they're intended for the kids who are naturally the smartest. There's going to be some degree of culture clash on that question, since (white) American culture generally prizes natural aptitude over hard work, while Asian culture generally prizes the hard work over the natural aptitude.

We've seen on this forum that many white parents feel that their smart kids deserve to be on top, and they're upset that other kids are working harder and thus doing better than their kid. For TJ, the obvious solution is free prep classes run by FCPS for all, but I don't think a lot of the non-Asians would be satisfied with that. They don't want their kids to do prep activities and catch up with the Asians. They want the Asians to stop putting their kids in prep classes, so their own bright children will shine more without the hard work.

I think a lot of this is true but I also think that what white and asian parents seem to have in common in this area with regard to AAP/TJ is the sharing of information and resources in a way that excludes other groups. At the same time other groups do not have the same access to knowledge which results in less successful applying and access to AAP/TJ.

I'm not asian or white but very much involved with our children's education overall and day to day. Even given that, I had never heard or nor knew of prepping for things like the NNAT and CogAT. I had never even heard of those tests until we got the sores back. By the time I realized that I could put together a parent recommendation and that these were the tests that determined whether a kid was in pool, I had no idea what my kid's NNAT score was, couldnt find it and had about 1 month (during the Xmas season) to get together a parent package. Thankfully my kid scored in the 99th percentile and was automatically put in pool and accepted in AAP in the first round. Another thing is that I had no idea how many things my child was eligible for with scores like this and I was really annoyed with the school for not flagging it for me as a parent. I've since signed my kid up for lots of other enrichment opportunities but that is only because i've stumbled into finding those things. There isnt a community of people sharing those resources like (I believe) white and asian families do.

I would suggest it’s concentrated by both race and resources. I’m white, but my at the time LMC parents wouldn’t have known about WISC or GT had it not been for one specific teacher in elementary school who recommended they have me re-evaluated because I was a nervous test-taker.

That is probably true as well. I believe the shared resources is more about who these groups socialize with and socio-economic status is probably baked in there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
COGAT is administered in second grade. Any child in enrichment (kiddie test prep?) by then is a reflection of the parents, mainly of the parents even knowing that there is outside test prep for that age, and not the kid.

Well, yeah, but many people buy workbooks for the CogAT and NNAT on Amazon, find online resources, or even put their 1st and rising 2nd graders in prep classes. All of the parents at my bus stop went with the Amazon workbooks and free online resources route, but they certainly did prep for the CogAT. Prepping is almost certainly a widespread thing, since 10% of FCPS kids score within the top 2% nationally, and we honestly aren't that much more gifted than anywhere else.

Disagree. I think this area attracts highly gifted people to the area for jobs (government, contractors, IT, etc.) and therefore has a higher concentration of gifted kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who wants to work hard for 4 years with relentless pressure and not have a normal teen dating/social life? C'mon and sign up here! Is TJ's program attractive to more students or is it a case of only interested students are signing up?

Maybe 10% will end up at an Ivy League school. 50% of those who apply to UVA will be rejected.

Unless the school starts admitting more well-rounded kids - if they do, watch those numbers go up QUICK

What are "well-rounded kids"? Why do you assume TJ kids are not well-rounded?

Plenty of TJ kids are well-rounded. Plenty of them are also not. If you are around TJ in any capacity, you know this. If they were, they'd have more success getting into schools like UVA. Perhaps not the Ivies, but definitely UVA.

I'm a TJ parent and I am not in the business of judging other children. My child is happy at school, has a good group of friends, and is pretty well-rounded for me. That is all that matters. And, what is the fascination with UVA? College acceptance rates from TJ are quite good. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

"Well-rounded" is code for a way to discriminate against Asians in college admissions.

Asians can't be well rounded?

That isn't what was said. "Well rounded" is subjective, so it is a way to rationalize not accepting a group with the highest objective (standardized tests, GPA, rank) measures.

Asians certainly can be well-rounded, and many of them from TJ are. And many students from other races are not well-rounded at all.

College is a business, and they have determined over the years that the objective measures that you cited are poor predictors of whether or not a student will be of future value to the school through things like donations, fame, and increased applications.

Much like TJ, elite universities would see a decrease in applications, and therefore prestige, and therefore eventually rankings, if their classes were 75-80% Asian. It's not good business for them, therefore, to make decisions based on poor indicators of what will generate interest and wealth for them.

And yet TJ maintains its ranking as the best high school and the prestige despite the 70% Asian students and constant attacks and undermining.

Applications to TJ have decreased by over 20% in the last two years. The drop in rankings will follow down the road.

[Anonymous]

It is about race and resources. You cannot choose your race. However, you can choose how to use your resources. It is called an economic choice.

Should I drink starbucks or save for my kid's education?
Should I get a nice hair color, cut, extensions, blow dry or save for my kid's education?
Should I buy lunch at work or pack lunch from home and save for my kid's education?
Should I have a cleaner at home or save for my kid's education?
Should I live in a nice place or live in a low COL housing area and save for my kid's education?
Should I buy new clothes or buy from thrift stores and pay for my kid's education?

Asian-American parents save from meager resources for their children. They are paid less than White counterparts but they still save for their children's education. Yes, a lot go in making their kids succeed. However, we all have the choice to not have children in the first place. No excuses to make babies and then not do everything in your power to make them succeed by providing resources. No child asked to be born.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

That is probably true as well. I believe the shared resources is more about who these groups socialize with and socio-economic status is probably baked in there.

Yep. In my neighborhood, in the last 4 years, 10 kids have gotten into AAP, and only 2 haven't. Of the ones who've been accepted, maybe 2 of them are actually gifted, and the rest are garden-variety above average privileged kids. Only 3 of them were even in-pool, and the rest were all parent referrals. People in my neighborhood are highly aware of AAP, attend the school AAP info sessions when their kids are still in K or 1st, talk about test prep at the bus stop, and know exactly how to present their kids in a way that gets them picked for AAP. I'm sure it's different in neighborhoods where few kids go to AAP or where nobody is focused on it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
COGAT is administered in second grade. Any child in enrichment (kiddie test prep?) by then is a reflection of the parents, mainly of the parents even knowing that there is outside test prep for that age, and not the kid.

Well, yeah, but many people buy workbooks for the CogAT and NNAT on Amazon, find online resources, or even put their 1st and rising 2nd graders in prep classes. All of the parents at my bus stop went with the Amazon workbooks and free online resources route, but they certainly did prep for the CogAT. Prepping is almost certainly a widespread thing, since 10% of FCPS kids score within the top 2% nationally, and we honestly aren't that much more gifted than anywhere else.

Disagree. I think this area attracts highly gifted people to the area for jobs (government, contractors, IT, etc.) and therefore has a higher concentration of gifted kids.

And many of those children of elites go to private schools. You can't look at Fairfax County as a whole when determining how gifted FCPS kids are, since private schooling is huge and a massive game-changer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who wants to work hard for 4 years with relentless pressure and not have a normal teen dating/social life? C'mon and sign up here! Is TJ's program attractive to more students or is it a case of only interested students are signing up?

Maybe 10% will end up at an Ivy League school. 50% of those who apply to UVA will be rejected.

Unless the school starts admitting more well-rounded kids - if they do, watch those numbers go up QUICK

What are "well-rounded kids"? Why do you assume TJ kids are not well-rounded?

Plenty of TJ kids are well-rounded. Plenty of them are also not. If you are around TJ in any capacity, you know this. If they were, they'd have more success getting into schools like UVA. Perhaps not the Ivies, but definitely UVA.

I'm a TJ parent and I am not in the business of judging other children. My child is happy at school, has a good group of friends, and is pretty well-rounded for me. That is all that matters. And, what is the fascination with UVA? College acceptance rates from TJ are quite good. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

"Well-rounded" is code for a way to discriminate against Asians in college admissions.

Asians can't be well rounded?

That isn't what was said. "Well rounded" is subjective, so it is a way to rationalize not accepting a group with the highest objective (standardized tests, GPA, rank) measures.

Asians certainly can be well-rounded, and many of them from TJ are. And many students from other races are not well-rounded at all.

College is a business, and they have determined over the years that the objective measures that you cited are poor predictors of whether or not a student will be of future value to the school through things like donations, fame, and increased applications.

Much like TJ, elite universities would see a decrease in applications, and therefore prestige, and therefore eventually rankings, if their classes were 75-80% Asian. It's not good business for them, therefore, to make decisions based on poor indicators of what will generate interest and wealth for them.

And yet TJ maintains its ranking as the best high school and the prestige despite the 70% Asian students and constant attacks and undermining.

Applications to TJ have decreased by over 20% in the last two years. The drop in rankings will follow down the road.

You wish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who wants to work hard for 4 years with relentless pressure and not have a normal teen dating/social life? C'mon and sign up here! Is TJ's program attractive to more students or is it a case of only interested students are signing up?

Maybe 10% will end up at an Ivy League school. 50% of those who apply to UVA will be rejected.

Unless the school starts admitting more well-rounded kids - if they do, watch those numbers go up QUICK

What are "well-rounded kids"? Why do you assume TJ kids are not well-rounded?

Plenty of TJ kids are well-rounded. Plenty of them are also not. If you are around TJ in any capacity, you know this. If they were, they'd have more success getting into schools like UVA. Perhaps not the Ivies, but definitely UVA.

I'm a TJ parent and I am not in the business of judging other children. My child is happy at school, has a good group of friends, and is pretty well-rounded for me. That is all that matters. And, what is the fascination with UVA? College acceptance rates from TJ are quite good. But we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

"Well-rounded" is code for a way to discriminate against Asians in college admissions.

Asians can't be well rounded?

That isn't what was said. "Well rounded" is subjective, so it is a way to rationalize not accepting a group with the highest objective (standardized tests, GPA, rank) measures.

Asians certainly can be well-rounded, and many of them from TJ are. And many students from other races are not well-rounded at all.

College is a business, and they have determined over the years that the objective measures that you cited are poor predictors of whether or not a student will be of future value to the school through things like donations, fame, and increased applications.

Much like TJ, elite universities would see a decrease in applications, and therefore prestige, and therefore eventually rankings, if their classes were 75-80% Asian. It's not good business for them, therefore, to make decisions based on poor indicators of what will generate interest and wealth for them.

And yet TJ maintains its ranking as the best high school and the prestige despite the 70% Asian students and constant attacks and undermining.

Applications to TJ have decreased by over 20% in the last two years. The drop in rankings will follow down the road.

Most of the drop in applications is due to white students who cannot compete with smart Asian students despite complaining my snowflake needs more rigor in aap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
COGAT is administered in second grade. Any child in enrichment (kiddie test prep?) by then is a reflection of the parents, mainly of the parents even knowing that there is outside test prep for that age, and not the kid.

Well, yeah, but many people buy workbooks for the CogAT and NNAT on Amazon, find online resources, or even put their 1st and rising 2nd graders in prep classes. All of the parents at my bus stop went with the Amazon workbooks and free online resources route, but they certainly did prep for the CogAT. Prepping is almost certainly a widespread thing, since 10% of FCPS kids score within the top 2% nationally, and we honestly aren't that much more gifted than anywhere else.

Disagree. I think this area attracts highly gifted people to the area for jobs (government, contractors, IT, etc.) and therefore has a higher concentration of gifted kids.

And many of those children of elites go to private schools. You can't look at Fairfax County as a whole when determining how gifted FCPS kids are, since private schooling is huge and a massive game-changer.

The children of STEM workers at NIH, NASA, NSA, NSF, etc are not going to elite private schools.

I wasn't referring to politicians and diplomats. I don't think politicians are gifted nor are their children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is about race and resources. You cannot choose your race. However, you can choose how to use your resources. It is called an economic choice.

Should I drink starbucks or save for my kid's education?
Should I get a nice hair color, cut, extensions, blow dry or save for my kid's education?
Should I buy lunch at work or pack lunch from home and save for my kid's education?
Should I have a cleaner at home or save for my kid's education?
Should I live in a nice place or live in a low COL housing area and save for my kid's education?
Should I buy new clothes or buy from thrift stores and pay for my kid's education?

Asian-American parents save from meager resources for their children. They are paid less than White counterparts but they still save for their children's education. Yes, a lot go in making their kids succeed. However, we all have the choice to not have children in the first place. No excuses to make babies and then not do everything in your power to make them succeed by providing resources. No child asked to be born.

Setting aside for the moment the virulent racism of most of the assumptions in the above....

It is wrong when access to educational opportunities are dependent upon having parents who plan for them from an early age.

When access to AAP and TJ change (and they will) over the next couple of years, there will be nothing stopping parents from continuing to do everything they can to enrich their child from an educational perspective. But if it's done properly, those choices that the parents make won't have nearly as great an impact on those access points.

It's the students who are going to AAP and TJ, not the parents. But right now, the privilege of having motivated parents is masquerading as "merit" when in reality, the students have very little to do with the metrics that are being used.

Test-taking is not a relevant skill in any area of life other than educational access. It's time to stop using it as a gatekeeping mechanism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your TJ student is put in an impossible position. Cheat along with the 75% or take the lower grade. Cheating is so widespread at TJ there is no avoiding it.

As someone with a kid who just graduated from TJ, this statement is clearly wrong/overblown. There is no doubt that there is some cheating at TJ, but I doubt that it is any more prevalent than it is at other base schools. My younger son - who is at our local HS - tells me about the cheating that goes on there.