Would you take Tufts, Emory, Wash U over UVA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

Do Education and MPH count as fluff degrees?

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

Do Education and MOH count as fluff degrees? Also, this thread shows how obsessed with UVA this forum is.

[Anonymous]

I meant MPH for the post above^^.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I meant MPH for the post above^^.

No education doesnt count - too off. center as an add-on in law or medicine - for medicine yes mph as an ivy add-on to a non-ivy MD would count as "fluff" in the above sense

But the PP poster who went to a top 60 school hasn't responded with thoughts about whether an ivy "finishing school" master's would have been a good investment of time looking back with hindsight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I meant MPH for the post above^^.

No education doesnt count - too off. center as an add-on in law or medicine - for medicine yes mph as an ivy add-on to a non-ivy MD would count as "fluff" in the above sense

But the PP poster who went to a top 60 school hasn't responded with thoughts about whether an ivy "finishing school" master's would have been a good investment of time looking back with hindsight

I thought most people get there MPH first to help them get into med school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I meant MPH for the post above^^.

No education doesnt count - too off. center as an add-on in law or medicine - for medicine yes mph as an ivy add-on to a non-ivy MD would count as "fluff" in the above sense

But the PP poster who went to a top 60 school hasn't responded with thoughts about whether an ivy "finishing school" master's would have been a good investment of time looking back with hindsight

I thought most people get there MPH first to help them get into med school

Could be. There’s definitely a do-over approach for less than stellar white privileged medical school wannabe candidates to take another shot shot at medical school. Mommy and daddy pay for resume building masters degrees and, in effect, volunteer work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

Very interesting you say that. So many times in my career I thought of an MPA from Kennedy at Harvard, an MBA, an Executive MBA...the MBAs from Wharton or Harvard. And just couldn't justify the expense. It would have been for ego instead of career. Perhaps when I retire and I get rich enough or I should say if. Got married had kids and then it became impossible. If I won the lottery, I would probably do it. Or even an LLM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

Very interesting you say that. So many times in my career I thought of an MPA from Kennedy at Harvard, an MBA, an Executive MBA...the MBAs from Wharton or Harvard. And just couldn't justify the expense. It would have been for ego instead of career. Perhaps when I retire and I get rich enough or I should say if. Got married had kids and then it became impossible. If I won the lottery, I would probably do it. Or even an LLM.

I worked full time and got one of these degrees. It helped me a lot. No excuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

Very interesting you say that. So many times in my career I thought of an MPA from Kennedy at Harvard, an MBA, an Executive MBA...the MBAs from Wharton or Harvard. And just couldn't justify the expense. It would have been for ego instead of career. Perhaps when I retire and I get rich enough or I should say if. Got married had kids and then it became impossible. If I won the lottery, I would probably do it. Or even an LLM.

I worked full time and got one of these degrees. It helped me a lot. No excuses.

See for me I was a practicing lawyer doing decent so it wouldn't have really helped from a career perspective. And the opportunity cost to go full time would have been tremendous, as the main bread winner in the house. After having three kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would say the list price premium if law is intended graduate field is not warranted for Washington U, Tufts, or Emory over UVA and W&M. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford are really difficult to decline, and it would also probably be tough for Columbia, Duke, etc., but not Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Cornell etc. Probably no more than a dozen or so schools tops (you can exclude MIT and Caltech if not going engineering and science).

There hasn't been much real data offered in this thread, but I note that the top two publics in representation on a per capita basis at super elite Yale Law are . . . W&M and UVA. The top undergraduate schools represented at the great UVA Law school (ranked #8) are . . . UVA and W&M. Sometimes it isn't too bad to be a Virginian.

Use your EA, ED1, and ED2 sequence wisely and it should work out well for you. Someone had a good suggested order that I can't recall, but it made great sense.

+1. You make a lot of sense.

OP here. Sequence was ED Emory, Tufts, or Wash U (haven't decided). Think he only realistically has a shot at Emory so leaning ED there pending visit. Tufts and Wash U are very hard from DC area privates. Mob scene for these three schools at the Independent Schools Fair a few weeks bad (that was held at Georgetown Prep). If ED 1 fails, ED 2 Wake or William and Mary (probably W&M because of cost). At same EA Michigan, Chicago, and UVA (while doing ED 1).

See the problem? If ED succeeds at Emory, we would not know EA UVA and are obligated (First World problems). ED comes out a week before Christmas and UVA ED is end of January. Hence the question: is it worth it if we are committed to Emory full pay. No chance of financial aid and was told yesterday by a consultant Emory gives 2% merit. This kid won't get it. Sister might though.

Speaking of Sister, you mention schools that hard to deny for law school. What are your thoughts on Dartmouth? They are third in terms of the class of 2021 at UVA Law behind UVA and William and Mary undergrads?

You seem wise to appreciate your advise on these points.

I see your problem. I'm afraid I don't have any real wisdom. I can only give you my point of view. Starting from the position of having monetary constraints, Virginia residency, and realistic admissions chances at UVA and W&M, I'd look at schools in three categories: 1) Gotta make it happen somehow if fortunate enough to be admitted 2) Want to make it happen if admitted 3) Not really justified from ROI or opportunity perspective based on current financial situation. Category 1 is Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Yale, Princeton, and Caltech. Category 2 is probably something like Columbia, Duke, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, and Chicago. Category 3 would include schools like JHU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Notre Dame, Northwestern, USC, Cornell, Emory, NYU, and Wesleyan. Different people will see this differently and there might be some exceptions based on kid's intended direction (e.g. USC Film School, Georgetown School of Foreign Service).

So your issue is one of your kids might get in Emory, which is below the line I drew, and one might get in Dartmouth, which I have above the line. Favoritism! And it appears your kids may be at private school, which tends to expose them to wealthy kids that are going off to full pay privates. In that scenario, the ED for full pay to Emory doesn't really make financial sense vs. in-state UVA or W&M if accepted there. If the kids really understand the expenses, which are extraordinary, and thought of it as coming out of their own pocket it might help. College costs have gone up significantly higher than the cost of living for over 40 years, and it has simply put a lot of families at the breaking point, or at a tough decision point in your case.

I hope someone else has some ideas.

I second and agree with the above analysis and the 3 categories - I would put Duke and Dartmouth in category 3 and cornell in 2 for engineering-oriented person, and duke+jhu in category 2 for pre-med, but otherwise, the split is right on in terms of slicing the optimal solution set on either side of UVA/W&M

Thanks I am OP again (Old Poster by the length of this thread ha ha). So I have Category 1 as you have it as well as Category 2 i.e. the original category poster. To this last poster, I would say I have all ivies in at least Category 2 along with may be a select few others like Duke and may be Hopkins. Georgetown does really really well in NYC and DC for whatever reasons (Ghost of Patrick Ewing and the 1985 National Championship) so they are probably tier 2 for our purposes but bottom of it. May be 3 given they are ranked below Wash U and Emory in US News.

As a lawyer that went to a top 60ish undergrad and a top 60 law school (but have done well by finding my niche and am GC of a financial company (moderate size)), I can say schools do make a difference in law and probably investment banking. My two older kids are headed to Law School and the younger probably business. Perhaps I am jaded by my struggles but I think even with my very strong resume in my field, I have been rejected from employment opportunities because of my schooling; and I don't mean large firms first year out of law school. I mean 15+ years out. I basically, through experience, made my way to big firms and then in-house. Started int the government then three law firms. then in-house ever since.

Looking back at your experience do you think buying your way into a harvard-type masters (ie llm or Kennedy school fluff mpp) would have helped? It seems that buying an ivy brand with a superfluous professional masters is the perfunctory rite of passage for the uninitiates to join the ivy club in America

Very interesting you say that. So many times in my career I thought of an MPA from Kennedy at Harvard, an MBA, an Executive MBA...the MBAs from Wharton or Harvard. And just couldn't justify the expense. It would have been for ego instead of career. Perhaps when I retire and I get rich enough or I should say if. Got married had kids and then it became impossible. If I won the lottery, I would probably do it. Or even an LLM.

I worked full time and got one of these degrees. It helped me a lot. No excuses.

See for me I was a practicing lawyer doing decent so it wouldn't have really helped from a career perspective. And the opportunity cost to go full time would have been tremendous, as the main bread winner in the house. After having three kids.

Executive MBAs are usually funded by the employer for management development. I've seen quite a few people get convenient Masters degrees that help them in their career area, but these don't have to be from an Ivy. Quite a few in D.C. area will get from GMU, for instance. If you did a law degree from a lower tier school, then got an LLM from a top 14, I don't think it changes perceptions of your academic credentials. You should get it just to advance your knowledge in your career area. I think if you go to a mid-level college and then are lucky enough to go to an elite law school, the elite law school (or MBA or medical) will trump and be the focal point. If you go to Ivy and then to a less than elite graduate program for a primary degree (e.g. JD) your Ivy degree will still matter, but people will kind of wonder why you didn't go to a better school. Medical school is such a tough admit, that it doesn't matter as much overall where you go (you still accomplished something extraordinarily difficult) as long as it is a U.S. accredited school. Of course, it will make a difference in getting desirable residencies, academic work, and joining certain practices. Law on the other hand has had such a severe contraction that you need to think carefully about going to a lower rated school and taking on much debt. I'm sure this is what was driving the questions of the OP.

[Anonymous]

Any of those options, with the exception of Emory, over UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Any of those options, with the exception of Emory, over UVA.

Meaning? Tufts or Wash U over UVA but UVA over Emory. Where does W&M fit in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Any of those options, with the exception of Emory, over UVA.

Meaning? Tufts or Wash U over UVA but UVA over Emory. Where does W&M fit in?

That's only that guy's opinion anyone choosing Tufts over Emory is silly. Emory has better placement and academics.

[Anonymous]

Virginia > W&M > Tufts/Emory/WUSTL and it isn't even close.