Is this going too far? Always removes Venus symbol to acknowledge transmen who menstruate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Things like this make it seem like we're trying to make gender defining terms a faux pas. I do not want to get to the point to where talking about the female experience is seen as insensitive.

Many people have different definitions, but I have never met a woman for whom coming to grips with and dealing with their reproductive system and what it means for them in their life in some way or another is not a formative part of their development.

Say what you want to say. That's under your control. People will react however they react - that's not under your control. If you believe that the reproductive system is the defining characteristic of women, and we have to somehow refer to the female reproductive system every time we talk about being a woman, then say those things. Nobody is stopping you.

Of course they aren't. So I'll keep saying what I think. And you can keep reacting how you react. I'm not the poster calling you Lisa BTW.

You are conflating posters.

-PP called "Lisa"

I'm the one who called you "Lisa". You're not responding to me in this post.

LOL - didn't see that

I think we figured that out when PP said “I'm not the poster calling you Lisa BTW.”

[Anonymous]

Oh and to answer your specific question "do I think that trans rights impose on women's rights?"

No I do not. But I do think that changing language that specifically acknowledges women's issues needs to be changed to fully support trans rights.

I fully support bathrooms, marriage, work protection etc, but just like trans people need to retain language to accurately refer to themselves and their issues, women need to retain language to refer to themselves and women's issues.

The word 'black' didn't go away when biracial people fought for rights.

[Anonymous]

The question is, should language about menstruation become more inclusive. It isn't about a specific package of pads, who cares about a specific package of pads. Not me and not others here. I do care very much about language around menstruation losing woman focused language BECAUSE of reasons like I cited.

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dude. Whoever you are doubling down on "hysterical" - you're either a troll, or very nicely demonstrating why actual feminists are impatient with this wing of trans activism.

Are those the anti-trans feminists? TERFs?

I'm not a TERF, unless you define that as wanting to be able to discuss women and motherhood in general, and the pre-eminence of reproductive rights in women's rights? I welcome anyone of any gender who wants to fight for women's rights.

I still want to know who is preventing you from discussing women and motherhood in general, or from having the opinion that reproductive rights are the pre-eminent rights for women.

[Anonymous]

Venus can change the packaging but no one has to buy it, e.g., Gillette.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The question is, should language about menstruation become more inclusive. It isn't about a specific package of pads, who cares about a specific package of pads. Not me and not others here. I do care very much about language around menstruation losing woman focused language BECAUSE of reasons like I cited.

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.

Girls not being educated because of their periods isn't a hypothetical, it is happening.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/12/28/506472549/does-handing-out-sanitary-pads-really-get-girls-to-stay-in-school

Women in prison being treated as sub human and given one or two tampons per period is not a hypothetical, it is happening.
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/02/jail-california-tampons-menstruation-paula-canny-sanitary-pads/

Women being denied ownership over their reproductive rights is not a hypothetical, it is happening.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/us/politics/supreme-court-abortion-louisiana.html

Because these inequalities between men and women exist. Because they are NOT hypothetical, I feel the language is important.

I have empathy for your friend, I have a transgender relative. They are a transgendered woman though so don't use period products. But what you describe is not a restriction of your friends rights. It is about their feelings. And I think preventing further restriction of women's rights is more important than a transgender man's feelings about menstruation.

When I am weighing rights against feelings, I will pick rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The question is, should language about menstruation become more inclusive. It isn't about a specific package of pads, who cares about a specific package of pads. Not me and not others here. I do care very much about language around menstruation losing woman focused language BECAUSE of reasons like I cited.

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.

You know a WOMAN who feels like a man, dresses like a man and (presumably) presents as a man. While we should be kind to this person, ignoring the reality of the situation doesn’t help the person in the long run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dude. Whoever you are doubling down on "hysterical" - you're either a troll, or very nicely demonstrating why actual feminists are impatient with this wing of trans activism.

Are those the anti-trans feminists? TERFs?

I'm not a TERF, unless you define that as wanting to be able to discuss women and motherhood in general, and the pre-eminence of reproductive rights in women's rights? I welcome anyone of any gender who wants to fight for women's rights.

I still want to know who is preventing you from discussing women and motherhood in general, or from having the opinion that reproductive rights are the pre-eminent rights for women.

If you are the person I am going back and forth with I did not post this. But other posters in this thread have specifically cited that posters like you have tried to imply that referring to women's rights as women's rights will in the future be looked on the same way LGBTQ and racial slurs are. Which is exactly what the pp and I believe should not happen.

Clearly nothing is preventing me from discussing women, motherhood, or having that opinion. I want that to still be the case in 10/20/30 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The question is, should language about menstruation become more inclusive. It isn't about a specific package of pads, who cares about a specific package of pads. Not me and not others here. I do care very much about language around menstruation losing woman focused language BECAUSE of reasons like I cited.

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.

You know a WOMAN who feels like a man, dresses like a man and (presumably) presents as a man. While we should be kind to this person, ignoring the reality of the situation doesn’t help the person in the long run.

PP that you were going back and forth with here. I am NOT the pp and would not have said this.

[Anonymous]

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.


You know a WOMAN who feels like a man, dresses like a man and (presumably) presents as a man. While we should be kind to this person, ignoring the reality of the situation doesn’t help the person in the long run.


PP that you were going back and forth with here. I am NOT the pp and would not have said this.

For what it's worth I'm not anyone that anyone has been going back and forth with, the first comment quoted here is my first comment in the thread.

I'm also not sure if you're the poster commenting about rights vs feelings, but all of those things cited as happening to women because of menstruation/restrictions on abortion access, would ALSO happen to trans men. The reproductive rights of trans men are also being restricted, trans men also need access to tampons. Do you think a trans man in a Louisiana prison gets an appropriate number of tampons because he's a man? Everything that got recited there is shared by both cis women and trans men. Hell, trans men on testosterone have a particular need for abortion access because if they get pregnant they either have to terminate the pregnancy or stop their medical treatment for dysphoria. Nothing about using expansive language to discuss menstruation changes the reality of what cis women experience, but using restrictive language does, effectively, deny that trans men can experience the same things.

I'd also push back on the idea that dysphoria is about "feelings," which is really minimizing language to discuss a clinically significant mental health issue. It's not about "being offended" or a whatever for a lot of trans people, it's about a spiral that can very easily end in hospitalization or suicide. Calling it "feelings" dramatically understates this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.


You know a WOMAN who feels like a man, dresses like a man and (presumably) presents as a man. While we should be kind to this person, ignoring the reality of the situation doesn’t help the person in the long run.


PP that you were going back and forth with here. I am NOT the pp and would not have said this.

For what it's worth I'm not anyone that anyone has been going back and forth with, the first comment quoted here is my first comment in the thread.

I'm also not sure if you're the poster commenting about rights vs feelings, but all of those things cited as happening to women because of menstruation/restrictions on abortion access, would ALSO happen to trans men. The reproductive rights of trans men are also being restricted, trans men also need access to tampons. Do you think a trans man in a Louisiana prison gets an appropriate number of tampons because he's a man? Everything that got recited there is shared by both cis women and trans men. Hell, trans men on testosterone have a particular need for abortion access because if they get pregnant they either have to terminate the pregnancy or stop their medical treatment for dysphoria. Nothing about using expansive language to discuss menstruation changes the reality of what cis women experience, but using restrictive language does, effectively, deny that trans men can experience the same things.

I'd also push back on the idea that dysphoria is about "feelings," which is really minimizing language to discuss a clinically significant mental health issue. It's not about "being offended" or a whatever for a lot of trans people, it's about a spiral that can very easily end in hospitalization or suicide. Calling it "feelings" dramatically understates this.

Wait - I thought they just announced that being transgender is NOT a mental illness.

[Anonymous]

Being trans is not itself mental illness, but gender dysphoria (distress felt due to a mismatch between the gender assigned at birth and the person's gender identity) is a still a DSM-V diagnosis. Not all trans people experience this distress, but many (I'd guess most) do. The treatment for dysphoria is transitioning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Do you know any trans people well? I do, including a trans man with whom I am very close. He can and does menstruate, and menstruation is something that triggers intense dysphoria because of the association with femaleness. I don't think that would be cured by reducing that association in how we talk about menstruation, but that's actual intense human suffering that we could try to alleviate with fairly simple changes in language. You can say you support trans people all you want, but at the end of the day you're looking at their pain and wringing your hands about hypotheticals.


You know a WOMAN who feels like a man, dresses like a man and (presumably) presents as a man. While we should be kind to this person, ignoring the reality of the situation doesn’t help the person in the long run.


PP that you were going back and forth with here. I am NOT the pp and would not have said this.

For what it's worth I'm not anyone that anyone has been going back and forth with, the first comment quoted here is my first comment in the thread.

I'm also not sure if you're the poster commenting about rights vs feelings, but all of those things cited as happening to women because of menstruation/restrictions on abortion access, would ALSO happen to trans men. The reproductive rights of trans men are also being restricted, trans men also need access to tampons. Do you think a trans man in a Louisiana prison gets an appropriate number of tampons because he's a man? Everything that got recited there is shared by both cis women and trans men. Hell, trans men on testosterone have a particular need for abortion access because if they get pregnant they either have to terminate the pregnancy or stop their medical treatment for dysphoria. Nothing about using expansive language to discuss menstruation changes the reality of what cis women experience, but using restrictive language does, effectively, deny that trans men can experience the same things.

I'd also push back on the idea that dysphoria is about "feelings," which is really minimizing language to discuss a clinically significant mental health issue. It's not about "being offended" or a whatever for a lot of trans people, it's about a spiral that can very easily end in hospitalization or suicide. Calling it "feelings" dramatically understates this.

I am that poster. I can accept that feelings is the wrong word, I'm not sure what the right word is. But there is still a difference and you understand it. Dysphoria is a mental illness. Depression and anxiety and stress caused by disordered thinking is a real thing that needs to be treated seriously. I believe that fully. I believe that transgendered people need access to robust healthcare and treatment, not just psychiatric but also to transition and anything else they may need. I can't think of an example that will not come off as extraordinarily insensitive but we do not change language or reality as a result of the way other mental illnesses cause disordered thinking.

All of those things do effect menstruating transgendered men. But the conditions in which they effect transgendered men are not the same. If a transgendered man needs tampons that needs to be about being a transgendered man in men's prison. There are no 'women' in men's prisons, using language that is clear is important there.

Having different words doesn't mean one party is excluded. It just means there are two different types of people. A person who has grown up with female biology and continues to live as a woman is in a different position and has different needs that need advocacy than someone who was born a woman but who is identifying and presenting as a man.

You can say grapes, and you can also say seedless grapes and green grapes and red grapes and moon grapes etc. That you correctly describe something does not mean you are excluding things that don't actually fall into that category.

[Anonymous]

I can't think of an example that will not come off as extraordinarily insensitive but we do not change language or reality as a result of the way other mental illnesses cause disordered thinking.

It's very difficult to read this comment as anything other than incredibly transphobic, but I might be misunderstanding. A trans person's gender identity isn't "disordered thinking," it's what they are. Trans men are men, period. They also menstruate, so referring to "menstruating people" instead of "women," is changing language to reflect reality.

All of those things do effect menstruating transgendered men. But the conditions in which they effect transgendered men are not the same. If a transgendered man needs tampons that needs to be about being a transgendered man in men's prison. There are no 'women' in men's prisons, using language that is clear is important there.

This is also very confusing. A trans man who is arrested or sentenced could very easily end up in a woman's jail or prison (probably would depending on how he looked, etc.), he'd experience the same thing as a cis woman under the same conditions. It's also 100% untrue that "there are no women in men's prisons," lots of trans women wind up in men's prisons. I'm not sure what you're saying there.

You can say grapes, and you can also say seedless grapes and green grapes and red grapes and moon grapes etc. That you correctly describe something does not mean you are excluding things that don't actually fall into that category.

And that's an argument for referring to "people who menstruate" when you mean everyone who needs access to tampons or "people who can become pregnant" when you mean everyone who needs access to abortion. You don't say "grapes" to mean seedless grapes only. If you mean cis women say cis women, if you mean everyone who has periods say that. There's no plausible argument that the traditional language is more accurate, because both men and women have periods, get abortions, etc., and saying "women" is both under and over inclusive if what you mean has something to with reproductive organs specifically.

You're also never explain why bringing trans men under the umbrella of "people who menstruate" impacts cis women who also menstruate in the least. The argument is very hand wavy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dude. Whoever you are doubling down on "hysterical" - you're either a troll, or very nicely demonstrating why actual feminists are impatient with this wing of trans activism.

Are those the anti-trans feminists? TERFs?

I'm not a TERF, unless you define that as wanting to be able to discuss women and motherhood in general, and the pre-eminence of reproductive rights in women's rights? I welcome anyone of any gender who wants to fight for women's rights.

Do you think the rights of trans people impose on women’s rights?

of course not. unless they are trying to get rid of all reference to women as a class and do things like defund domestic violence shelters. I am all for using the right pronouns, bathrooms, health care.