Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Is this the same case before a criminal judge in Alexandria, VA? That midwife is being charged with manslaughter because she did a home birth where the child did not survive. The parents didn't press charges, it was the DA's office that brought charges against the midwife. She did have a license to practice midwifery in Maryland, but not Virginia and the parents knew that from the beginning.

I think its a bit extreme to potentially put this woman in jail, with hardened criminals, because she practiced in a different state with the parents being fully aware of her situation. And of course, as a midwife with her own practice, she isn't covered under the corporate vail of a hospital's malpractice insurance so they are throwing the book at her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is this the same case before a criminal judge in Alexandria, VA? That midwife is being charged with manslaughter because she did a home birth where the child did not survive. The parents didn't press charges, it was the DA's office that brought charges against the midwife. She did have a license to practice midwifery in Maryland, but not Virginia and the parents knew that from the beginning.

I think its a bit extreme to potentially put this woman in jail, with hardened criminals, because she practiced in a different state with the parents being fully aware of her situation. And of course, as a midwife with her own practice, she isn't covered under the corporate vail of a hospital's malpractice insurance so they are throwing the book at her.

I like how this issue keeps getting glossed over. She wasn't licensed in VA. You can't go practice medicine or law or do construction or have a daycare or be a nurse if you are not licensed in the state. Really, is that concept so hard to grasp? What she was doing was illegal. It makes no difference if the parents knew she wasn't licensed (did they know?!?!), SHE knew she wasn't licensed so she took on all the responsibility of being an unlicensed care provider.

I am glad that VA is prosecuting. I am glad that this issue is coming to light.

You can look at any state medical board and see the status of licenses which have been revoked. http://www.mbp.state.md.us/ is pretty easy to peruse and you can see how often it happens. How can you go after someone who isn't licenses except through the criminal court system?

[Anonymous]

Ok, I agree with you that practicing without a license is wrong, but to be charged with manslaughter??? She should be charged with practicing without a license but NOT manslaughter. That's a bit excessive. And yes, the parents did know and they have publicly stated that they signed a consent order and are going to testify on her behalf. So this isn't about what's right and wrong, its about a prosecuter who is looking to make an example out her because she doesn't have a corporate shield on her side.

[Anonymous]

Really if someone doesn't take the time to trouble with a medical license in a state where they attempt to practice medicine or midwifery and then a baby dies, then that so-called provider should be legally skewered. This would seem to me to be a warning sign of other details or signs that may have been skipped, glossed over, forgotten, or missed. This is a consumer protection issue. I am glad the prosecutors are moving forward. I hope Carr is convicted and serves every day of those 30 years in prison. I also hope other illegal providers, and especially CPMs in states where they are legally forbidden to practice, take note.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I agree with you that practicing without a license is wrong, but to be charged with manslaughter??? She should be charged with practicing without a license but NOT manslaughter. That's a bit excessive. And yes, the parents did know and they have publicly stated that they signed a consent order and are going to testify on her behalf. So this isn't about what's right and wrong, its about a prosecuter who is looking to make an example out her because she doesn't have a corporate shield on her side.

I agree with you on Karen being made an example of. But at the end of the day, there was at least enough evidence for the district attorney to file criminal charges against her for involuntary manslaughter. I suspect that there is more to this than simply that the state is trying to send a message to CPMs...

[Anonymous]

It's funny that all the vitriol directed at me contains no correction about CPMs being certified from a commune trailer park. You can get mad personally, but I'm still right

Actually I read your statments about the trailer, wife-swapping commune and dismiss them as being ignorant of true facts. Have you been to TN to visit? Do you have any real knowledge of the training or are you what another poster mentioned someone on the far other extrme of home births making comments? Hmm, I think the extreme and not someone who can really look at this situation with any kind of clarity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aaaand here we go comparing childbirth to heart surgery. Birth is not an illness. It is not a problem to be solved. Heart surgery is never a normal process. Sex, eating and bowel movements are also vigorous natural processes that can go very, very wrong as well, but (not yet at least) we don't require monitoring and hospitalization to do so. The only difference is that there is a cute little baby at stake and lots of money to be made. Does sex and pooping and swallowing food go right most of the time just because of "dumb luck"? Hardly.

Yup, it's not a problem until it is one, and recognizing that point isn't so easy.

I think that losing ~7 women per 1000 live births and ~100 infants per 1000 live births is pretty bad, whereas my chances of choking to death are much, much lower, but I guess since the ideology says that "birth is natural and not an illness," that birth must be super safe!

Yeah - saying it's not a problem to be solved where, in this case, a baby died, is pretty ridiculous. I happen to think that's a problem. I don't know if it could have been avoided if the birth took place in a hospital, but to say it wasn't a problem is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's funny that all the vitriol directed at me contains no correction about CPMs being certified from a commune trailer park. You can get mad personally, but I'm still right

Actually I read your statments about the trailer, wife-swapping commune and dismiss them as being ignorant of true facts. Have you been to TN to visit? Do you have any real knowledge of the training or are you what another poster mentioned someone on the far other extrme of home births making comments? Hmm, I think the extreme and not someone who can really look at this situation with any kind of clarity.

You're right. My information about the NARM Applications Center being based in a mobile home on a commune came from a questionable source. I read it in the 2010 Summer issue of NARM's newsletter (Volume XIIi, Issue 1, Summer 2010). Read it yourself:

http://www.narm.org/pdffiles/2010-summer-CPM-News.pdf

There's even a photo of the trailer in the front page of the newsletter. The property that it's located on is called The Farm in Summertown, Tenn., a colorful commune where Steven and Ina May Gaskin were group married with two other couples and passed each other around every night. Does that sound so empowering and liberating for women?

I have a great deal of clarity on this issue. I have read dozens (hundreds?) of stories about CPMs who provided lousy advice and care based on the lack of skill and expertise. As a result, mothers died and babies were killed or brain damaged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I agree with you that practicing without a license is wrong, but to be charged with manslaughter??? She should be charged with practicing without a license but NOT manslaughter. That's a bit excessive. And yes, the parents did know and they have publicly stated that they signed a consent order and are going to testify on her behalf. So this isn't about what's right and wrong, its about a prosecuter who is looking to make an example out her because she doesn't have a corporate shield on her side.

Where is this information available (about the parents publicly stating they signed a consent order and are going to testify on the midwife's behalf)? Mom's review of Birthcare/the birth assistant sounded very angry. I wouldn't be surprised if a civil case came out of this, although perhaps the family knows they will get more $ going after Birthcare rather than an unlicensed midwife?

[Anonymous]

It is hardly a secret that Karen (and other lay midwives) do many births in the DC metro area. Why is it only after a bad outcome that the state is pursuing her? I think that it is clear that her practice was not lawful, but it is confusing (and gives lots of people the idea that it's OK) when the state looks the other way. Now there is a bad outcome and suddenly they decide to act. Does the state bear some responsibility for ignoring her practice and others like it for such a long time? You can see reviews and find Karen's contact info easily with a simple internet search. It is not as though she has been in hiding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You what drives me crazy all the time when this comes up? There's a middle road that nobody seems willing or able to get to. Hospitals could create natural birth friendly environments within their walls -- midwives could practice freely there, women would be permitted to eat and move and walk and have whatever visitors they wanted, play music they wanted, turn lights down or off, get in the tub or shower, not be subjected to mandatory procedures like frequent routine cervical checks or nonstop fetal monitoring, etc etc etc. Midwives could be valued and trusted members of the hospital network, so that women could give birth in hospitals in truly hospitable environments (if that's what they choose), AND SO THAT IF ANYTHING SERIOUS *DOES* GO WRONG, THEY COULD TRANSFER CARE IMMEDIATELY.

I had two wonderful natural births at DC area birth centers, and all along, I thought how frustrating it was that so many people are so stubborn about being on one end of the other of the spectrum that this middle ground seems basically impossible.

Isn't this how it is with the Midwives at Shady Grove? Pretty much everything you stated in on their birth plan checklist. I was able to eat (though I didn't), move, walk, not be hooked up to an IV, refuse cervical checks, play music, turn the lights down, labor in the tub, and have visitors (which I didn't want, heh).

And also, after reading alllll of this thread, I am now really really freaked out that I am going to die if I do for some reason have to have an emergency C-section! Guess it's pregnancy hormones, and I should stop reading this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is hardly a secret that Karen (and other lay midwives) do many births in the DC metro area. Why is it only after a bad outcome that the state is pursuing her? I think that it is clear that her practice was not lawful, but it is confusing (and gives lots of people the idea that it's OK) when the state looks the other way. Now there is a bad outcome and suddenly they decide to act. Does the state bear some responsibility for ignoring her practice and others like it for such a long time? You can see reviews and find Karen's contact info easily with a simple internet search. It is not as though she has been in hiding.

Exactly!!! State authorities drop the ball big time. I know this personally because CPMs are not legally allowed to practice in my state. I reported this to the state Department of Health and they did nothing, atty general's office and nothing. I got a personal call from someone who told me the cabinet director had to be careful about how he proceeded because it would anger a lot of people and drive those that do practice deeper underground.

The crazy thing in my state is that lay midwives openly advertise what they do on Websites and they are explicit. They don't even try to be underground, but no one will care until a baby is dead or a mother is dead. The websites of these lay midwives, some are CPMs and some are direct-entry midwives, is that they purport all of these claims about how it is as safe or safer than hospital birth. They feature selective personal stories abotu how magical the orgasmic birth was and how they will be better mothers because they bonded with their child immediately and how real women don't have C-sections, etc. But when things go wrong they just drop the mother off at the door of the hospital and hit the gas. When these Websites and advertisements are allowed to stand as-is and without being questioned, then people think it must really be OK, they think that surely it's legal, that surely these people must be licensed by somebody, surely they wouldn't be allowed to advertise home birth if what they do is really illegal. That's what they think. State authorities are just waiting for a death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I agree with you that practicing without a license is wrong, but to be charged with manslaughter??? She should be charged with practicing without a license but NOT manslaughter. That's a bit excessive. And yes, the parents did know and they have publicly stated that they signed a consent order and are going to testify on her behalf. So this isn't about what's right and wrong, its about a prosecuter who is looking to make an example out her because she doesn't have a corporate shield on her side.

Where is this information available (about the parents publicly stating they signed a consent order and are going to testify on the midwife's behalf)? Mom's review of Birthcare/the birth assistant sounded very angry. I wouldn't be surprised if a civil case came out of this, although perhaps the family knows they will get more $ going after Birthcare rather than an unlicensed midwife?

Yes, I am interested in finding out where you found this out, too.

[Anonymous]

You're right. My information about the NARM Applications Center being based in a mobile home on a commune came from a questionable source. I read it in the 2010 Summer issue of NARM's newsletter (Volume XIIi, Issue 1, Summer 2010). Read it yourself:

http://www.narm.org/pdffiles/2010-summer-CPM-News.pdf

Give you the trailor -- but it isn't a run down shack as you imply with your language. Sorry I missed the article in their newsletter about the wife swapping. Maybe you can show where you got that information.

I've read hundrds of stories where women have gotten the birth they wanted with a midwife.

[Anonymous]

What does the Gaskins marriage beliefs have to do with the practice of midwifery?