Choosing between VDA ECNL and FCV GA

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it


That’s fine troll. You were given every opportunity to explain the great FCV scandal of our times but there is none.

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it


That’s fine troll. You were given every opportunity to explain the great FCV scandal of our times but there is none.



No. I can tell you want to tell everyone the truth. I can’t do it for you. That’s your journey. You’re so close. You know who I am. I know who you are. Just man up.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FCV parent here.

I'm going to be honest - we are NOT happy with FCV right now. Like others have mentioned, FCV has no player pool and relies on word-of-mouth to get outside players. At the 2009 GA ID session (for which they only held one), there were a grand total of 10 outside players trying out. The 2009 team is not good - they have struggled in the ECNL-RL (many of those clubs field ECNL teams and pulled from their "A" teams, which beat FCV) and EDP league (both 09 top division and 08 lowest division). There is zero consistency, and Bobby only added 6 outside players. They did nothing to shake up the team and add other talented players, either out of parent loyalty or something. If your child is a 2009 birth year, stay far away from FCV. There are some solid players on that team, but they are getting overshadowed by their teammates who are there only to be a bragging point for their parents. If they are a 2010, then the GA team for that birth year may be solid (I've heard that they are winning their games and tournaments). 2008 and older, you might be good to go. Also - take note of the college commitments. Yes, FCV likes to brag that they can get all their graduating GA players on college rosters; however, those are letters of intent and not actual scholarships.

We're in the process of trying to leave the club for somewhere else because of the inconsistency. She's an older birth year, but she is frustrated and unhappy. She loves the game, but hates going to practice because of the players and coaching.



FCV Parent here (too):

I agree. The player pool is seriously lacking. I think the FCV soccer reputation has been overcome with the negative coaching aspects. It used to be a great club when Terry, Christian and others ran the training. Most girls in the area will become verbally committed to a college they really are happy with - regardless of the club. FCV doesn't hold the market on great commits. It is much better to shop around for location and training rather than the reputation of an old powerhouse team that graduated 2-3 years ago. Stay away from FCV.


Fair assessment; I'm sure some parents reading this will re-evaluate their position and willing to drive far for something that is based on a legacy. You've likely provided a good thought point.


My daughter loves it when Christian coaches - she says that she feels as if she learned/did something on those days; however, Christian moved to the admin side of FCV and only coaches once a week (if that) for my daughter's team. She enjoys Tom Torres as well, but other than that, she is so disillusioned and frustrated by the cliquish behavior in the team (knowingly or unknowingly perpetuated by the coaches' lack of awareness or care).

But yes - the reason we picked FCV (we've been with the club for over 3 years) is because of that legacy. As time has gone on, the club is resting on their laurels and is constantly hyping up the Fox/McNally angle - players who were most likely trained by coaches other than BP. They do not care about their United teams (who often have stronger players than the GA teams - we heard that a state-ranked high school player was never offered DA/GA and spent her whole club career on the United side). I just don't see the club replicating the same success as their original DA teams with their younger teams, especially if they refuse to shake up their rosters.


Tom Torres is still coaching for FCV?


Club announcement said he was starting this year. Did he coach at FCV in the past?



Tom Torres was kicked out of the Washington Spirit Organization for behaviour issues. Tom and BP now are trying to branch out into the Nova FV (older "semi" pro) teams. You can immediately see the social media impact of BP on the Nova FC outputs. They went from posting games schedules and results to massive massive marketing. It's a junk league (think Bad News Bears) for wayward coaches.


Behavior issues = creepy behavior and groping players. Why would anyone let their daughter be around that creep?


There is definitely some reason FCV can't attract quality coaches. Tom Torres is not a "win" for FCV. I think they just let him in so BP can have a link to Nova FC. Now they are ruining two clubs. Here is some advice, if you can't get out of FCV due to your commitment zone - get that scholarship and NEVER return. The toxicity just perpetuates.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it


That’s fine troll. You were given every opportunity to explain the great FCV scandal of our times but there is none.



He's not saying there is a scandal. He's just saying certain clubs have affiliations with certain colleges. FCV = VA TECH and VMI. McLean = Columbia and U of Miami.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it


That’s fine troll. You were given every opportunity to explain the great FCV scandal of our times but there is none.



He's not saying there is a scandal. He's just saying certain clubs have affiliations with certain colleges. FCV = VA TECH and VMI. McLean = Columbia and U of Miami.


And I’m saying that going back to 2007 FCV has sent 5 kids to VMI. Please explain the affiliation between club and school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m still waiting for you to name your school


Settle down Paul Blart. I think the pp is just saying that VMI has a terrible reputation and culture particularly for females as they over compensate for not getting into a real military academy. No harm, no foul.


That is all terrific, but what does it have to do with FCV?

Either state the relationship between FCV and VMI or each time VMI is inexplicably mentioned without context it will simply be flagged for removal based on trolling or thread hijacking.


Are you threatening to tattle? I guess safety never takes a holiday


No, either explain the connection of VMI to FCV regarding the news stories you posted or go away. You aren’t providing anything constructive to any discussion and are simply hijacking threads with the dumbest of points.


No. You guess why everyone keeps posting about VMI in FCV threads. Is it TT? Is it the special beach house training? Is it FCV Dad’s recruitment of players? Who knows. But you guess and stop telling people what to do. I’m not one of your special players


No, explain it or every time VMI comes up it will be tagged as trolling and hijacking.

FCV has no influence on VMI so either just say what your point is or go away.


No. FCV Dad. Why don’t you explain it all to everyone? Otherwise your posts will be tagged as deflection.


I’m not affiliated with FCV. I’m not sure how asking you to explain YOUR point is a deflection.


That’s believable. Your just some random that came across this thread and decided to spend your evening defending some random club. FCV Dad. You’re too modest and your MO is obvious. Just be honest with everyone. Tell them. They deserve to know. Parents and their DD deserve to know


I’m not defending FCV. I’m asking you to actually make your point. How does FCV possibly influence VMI? Make your point or go away. You simply sound like a lunatic.


No means no. Don’t you get it yet? You may feel better if you’re just honest with yourself and everyone. Try it


That’s fine troll. You were given every opportunity to explain the great FCV scandal of our times but there is none.



No. I can tell you want to tell everyone the truth. I can’t do it for you. That’s your journey. You’re so close. You know who I am. I know who you are. Just man up.


LOL I have no idea who you are. I’m not affiliated with FCV and YOU are the one who claims to have information. Either put up or shut up.

I am simply tired of your cryptic lame posts that derail from conversations. You’re a troll.
Anonymous
So...I'm summary ...FCV is not the go to recruitment club, full of toxic coaching, and has now hired TT - a coach fired for improper behaviour. I think the answer is clear VDA.
Anonymous
No, VDA is not the answer either. The answer is pick the club closest to your home with the players and coach that fit your daughter’s needs the best. As we’ve proven via this long and divergent thread, no club is superior across all age groups and they all have their pros and cons.
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