Common Core question for proponents

[Anonymous]

That sounds grand, but it doesn't answer the question of why fractions would be different in Maryland than in Alabama.

Duh. Fractions are the same. Does that big admission give you evidence of why tests are needed? Does that make my point irrelevant? You can put all kinds of facts out there that students need to learn, but the tests have to be relevant within the context of an overall educational process. You only have part of the picture. Standardized tests do not, solely by their existence, mean that children will reach their level for whatever reason.

[Anonymous]

Sure, education cannot be completely objectified or quantified, but is that any reason for not quantifying and objectifying any of it at all? I don't think so. Nobody is seeking or expecting *complete* objectification, anyhow - CC does not strive for that, it's only a minimal standard, and neither does NCLB, it doesn't even remotely attempt to assess every aspect of educational achievement - it just looks at several key areas.

Then why do the tests take 10 hours to complete?

[Anonymous]

What about the 4th grader who doesn't have an IEP, but can barely read or who can't add 1+1? Isn't that important to identify early on?

It is truly insulting to teachers to insinuate that they can't figure out if a 4th grader can barely read or add. If that is going on, the feds should send money to recruit better teachers. I do know that some of the best teachers are leaving because the pay is not "professional". Maybe you get what you pay for. But the tests are not the best way to solve that problem. Far from it.

[Anonymous]

Also, our universities are *not* necessarily the best in the world - in fact, university degree programs in the US have become watered down over the last several decades - the typical Engineering degree in the US in many cases is down to less than 125 credits, as opposed to 135+ 20 years ago, and the content is less deep and rigorous than it was. You should take a look at technical programs at universities like Technion in Israel as compared to one in the US and you will see both more content and deeper content than for the corresponding program in the US.

Here is the list. Technion is number 69. MIT is number 1. Stanford is number 2. UC-Berkeley is number 3.


http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/subject-ranking/subject/engineering-and-IT

[Anonymous]

What about the 4th grader who doesn't have an IEP, but can barely read or who can't add 1+1? Isn't that important to identify early on?

If the bean counters in the sky are seeing tests like this, the numbers are totally out of context. Only the teacher in the classroom can give the bigger picture for this student. The student may be forced to take the test because the parents have refused Special Education. The student may not speak English well and the parents have refused ESOL (which happens quite a bit). The student may not care about the test. The student may be chronically absent from school. All kinds of stuff can be going on, but the bean counters will immediately think the school is failing or the teacher is failing. Only the people at the local level will have the entire picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What about the 4th grader who doesn't have an IEP, but can barely read or who can't add 1+1? Isn't that important to identify early on?

If the bean counters in the sky are seeing tests like this, the numbers are totally out of context. Only the teacher in the classroom can give the bigger picture for this student. The student may be forced to take the test because the parents have refused Special Education. The student may not speak English well and the parents have refused ESOL (which happens quite a bit). The student may not care about the test. The student may be chronically absent from school. All kinds of stuff can be going on, but the bean counters will immediately think the school is failing or the teacher is failing. Only the people at the local level will have the entire picture.

You're being disingenuous. There's going to be a big body of data coming in from the tests, which provides context as well. Even bean counters can tell the difference between a few kids having those types of issues versus the majority of a classroom or the majority of a school having issues.

[Anonymous]

If the bean counters in the sky are seeing tests like this, the numbers are totally out of context. Only the teacher in the classroom can give the bigger picture for this student. The student may be forced to take the test because the parents have refused Special Education. The student may not speak English well and the parents have refused ESOL (which happens quite a bit). The student may not care about the test. The student may be chronically absent from school. All kinds of stuff can be going on, but the bean counters will immediately think the school is failing or the teacher is failing. Only the people at the local level will have the entire picture.

And, most important, the student may never have been in school before and may not speak English at all.

[Anonymous]

You're being disingenuous. There's going to be a big body of data coming in from the tests, which provides context as well. Even bean counters can tell the difference between a few kids having those types of issues versus the majority of a classroom or the majority of a school having issues.

We already know the problem in schools where the majority are having issues. It's not the teachers.

[Anonymous]

If the bean counters in the sky are seeing tests like this, the numbers are totally out of context. Only the teacher in the classroom can give the bigger picture for this student. The student may be forced to take the test because the parents have refused Special Education. The student may not speak English well and the parents have refused ESOL (which happens quite a bit). The student may not care about the test. The student may be chronically absent from school. All kinds of stuff can be going on, but the bean counters will immediately think the school is failing or the teacher is failing. Only the people at the local level will have the entire picture.


You're being disingenuous. There's going to be a big body of data coming in from the tests, which provides context as well. Even bean counters can tell the difference between a few kids having those types of issues versus the majority of a classroom or the majority of a school having issues.

And what is the federal government going to do about this problem? They already send Title 1 money into those schools. You honestly don't need tests to know where those problems are. Right now they send money into "high poverty" schools because those are the same schools that score low on the tests. The problem doesn't stem from "bad teachers" or "low standards". The feds already know this, but somehow Congress insists on the testing (as part of the NCLB law). It's expensive and unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

Also, our universities are *not* necessarily the best in the world - in fact, university degree programs in the US have become watered down over the last several decades - the typical Engineering degree in the US in many cases is down to less than 125 credits, as opposed to 135+ 20 years ago, and the content is less deep and rigorous than it was. You should take a look at technical programs at universities like Technion in Israel as compared to one in the US and you will see both more content and deeper content than for the corresponding program in the US.

Please keep your hands off our universities! Scott Walker is trying to run the University of Wisconsin with his cockamamie ideas. It's a GREAT university and it doesn't need to be screwed up by government meddling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

If the bean counters in the sky are seeing tests like this, the numbers are totally out of context. Only the teacher in the classroom can give the bigger picture for this student. The student may be forced to take the test because the parents have refused Special Education. The student may not speak English well and the parents have refused ESOL (which happens quite a bit). The student may not care about the test. The student may be chronically absent from school. All kinds of stuff can be going on, but the bean counters will immediately think the school is failing or the teacher is failing. Only the people at the local level will have the entire picture.


You're being disingenuous. There's going to be a big body of data coming in from the tests, which provides context as well. Even bean counters can tell the difference between a few kids having those types of issues versus the majority of a classroom or the majority of a school having issues.

And what is the federal government going to do about this problem? They already send Title 1 money into those schools. You honestly don't need tests to know where those problems are. Right now they send money into "high poverty" schools because those are the same schools that score low on the tests. The problem doesn't stem from "bad teachers" or "low standards". The feds already know this, but somehow Congress insists on the testing (as part of the NCLB law). It's expensive and unnecessary.

You aren't making your case here. High poverty schools have high failure rates because of social and cultural issues, not because of NCLB testing or a CC curriculum that critics like you want to say is "developmentally inappropriate." That's a separate issue which impacts academics, but which is not a direct function of NCLB or Common Core.

[Anonymous]

^NCLB is not what is mandating firing teachers. You can thank your school district administrators for that.

[Anonymous]

^ But the Arne Duncan "waiver" to parts of NCLB is mandating that a certain percentage of a teacher's evaluation be based on standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

You aren't making your case here. High poverty schools have high failure rates because of social and cultural issues, not because of NCLB testing or a CC curriculum that critics like you want to say is "developmentally inappropriate." That's a separate issue which impacts academics, but which is not a direct function of NCLB or Common Core.

Precisely. And maybe this is where the focus for the "solutions" should be . . . not on NCLB testing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You aren't making your case here. High poverty schools have high failure rates because of social and cultural issues, not because of NCLB testing or a CC curriculum that critics like you want to say is "developmentally inappropriate." That's a separate issue which impacts academics, but which is not a direct function of NCLB or Common Core.

Precisely. And maybe this is where the focus for the "solutions" should be . . . not on NCLB testing.

And thus far, despite pages and pages and pages of discussion we have thus far seen exactly ZERO meaningful solutions or alternatives coming from the NCLB and CC critics. It's the same bullshit as "repeal ObamaCare" when they have no alternative proposal to fix the problems - and we already know the status quo sucks ass.