Common Core question for proponents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually too bad for the people who believe that fighting the Common Core standards will stop the testing, since it won't.

I heard they (Senators)were working on eliminating the testing requirement.

If Congress actually agrees to do something, and gets rid of the testing requirement in NCLB, then people won't fight the Common Core standards anymore -- at least according to the reasoning that the testing is the death knell for the Common Core standards.

[Anonymous]

If Congress actually agrees to do something, and gets rid of the testing requirement in NCLB, then people won't fight the Common Core standards anymore -- at least according to the reasoning that the testing is the death knell for the Common Core standards.

They won't matter. Teachers won't worry about having to test the stupid ones.

[Anonymous]

Getting rid of the NCLB testing mandates will take a lot of pressure off the "standards" discussion. EVERYONE, whether you are pro or anti CC should work to get rid of the NCLB testing mandates. That is one thing that we should agree on.

[Anonymous]

Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

First, there's NEAP testing, so that blows your theory right there.

Second, if you want to test the kids, make the tests meaningful. These are only punitive. Teachers, parents, schools and students will learn nothing specific from them about students' performance.

But hey, we're making Pearson and other testing companies rich, which is want counts. Too bad it comes at the expense of our children's education and futures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

First, there's NEAP testing, so that blows your theory right there.

Second, if you want to test the kids, make the tests meaningful. These are only punitive. Teachers, parents, schools and students will learn nothing specific from them about students' performance.

But hey, we're making Pearson and other testing companies rich, which is want counts. Too bad it comes at the expense of our children's education and futures.

I thought you hated testing. But now, apparently you think NEAP = good but PARCC = evil just because you arbitrarily decided so?

WRONG! Can you cite for me something authoritative coming directly from PARCC, Smarter Balanced or state tests that specifically and uncategorically says the intent of the testing is for it to be punitive?

And, as for Pearson, so what? There was nothing stopping educators or other organizations from stepping up to the plate do handle the logistics. Pearson happened to be better at it than the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

First, there's NEAP testing, so that blows your theory right there.

Second, if you want to test the kids, make the tests meaningful. These are only punitive. Teachers, parents, schools and students will learn nothing specific from them about students' performance.

But hey, we're making Pearson and other testing companies rich, which is want counts. Too bad it comes at the expense of our children's education and futures.

I thought you hated testing. But now, apparently you think NEAP = good but PARCC = evil just because you arbitrarily decided so?

WRONG! Can you cite for me something authoritative coming directly from PARCC, Smarter Balanced or state tests that specifically and uncategorically says the intent of the testing is for it to be punitive?

And, as for Pearson, so what? There was nothing stopping educators or other organizations from stepping up to the plate do handle the logistics. Pearson happened to be better at it than the rest.

NEAP is controlled testing and has been done for years. It also shows the truth: Americans aren't falling behind other countries. We've never been particularly good at "test taking" because we don't skew the numbers like other countries do. We educate everybody, even the disabled and the poor. Our top students are just as good as anyone in the world; better, actually, because they, up to this point, haven't been 'common." People leave Asian countries and flock here because they want the balance Americans have. Common Core is causing us to lose that balance. We are now trying to put out cookie cutter children who are little trophies for their parents because the "test well."


The most innovative people in the world have been fairly lousy at school and testing taking. Common Core supporters care about all the wrong things.

[Anonymous]

The most innovative people in the world have been fairly lousy at school and testing taking. Common Core supporters care about all the wrong things.

So true. I was an excellent test taker. And, what am I doing right now? Reading and responding on DCUM!

[Anonymous]

Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

The PSAT and SAT and ACT tests give us information. I don't think we have to worry about the comparison to Germany and Singapore, etc. because they don't have the same breadth of population being counted in their statistics.

The USA has the best universities in the world. People flock here from all over the world because they know we have the best. Our students who go on to these schools are not less than what other countries are producing.

The best schools in America are those that are not defined by certain "standards". They are the schools that take students from wherever they are and improve them. This is going on every day in schools in America. The complexity of what is going on will never be able to be fully tested by a standardized test.

And, yes, I agree that there is no objective baseline. But, education cannot be totally objectified. It defies the objectification, by its very nature, that the bean counters are seeking. What Maryland and Virginia and Alabama and New York are doing can be different and that's okay. In fact, what certain districts inside these states are doing is probably different and that's okay too. We need a diversity of thinking and approaches to thinking and creating in America. That's our strength. We are unique and we don't need to look like Singapore or Japan or Taiwan or Korea. Free thinking is our strength.

Also, would you want a doctor who follows a strict set of rules for your malady or would you want a doctor who considers your particular body type, health issues, physical history, etc. and then adjusts the protocol based on your individual circumstances?

The best way to make education stronger is to recruit good people, train them well, and let them do the complex job of teaching. Anything else is secondary to this.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand this argument. The best US students are as good as students internationally, and so therefore...?

I also don't understand why fractions, for example, would be different in Maryland than in Alabama.

[Anonymous]

The PSAT and SAT and ACT tests give us information. I don't think we have to worry about the comparison to Germany and Singapore, etc. because they don't have the same breadth of population being counted in their statistics.

The USA has the best universities in the world. People flock here from all over the world because they know we have the best. Our students who go on to these schools are not less than what other countries are producing.

The best schools in America are those that are not defined by certain "standards". They are the schools that take students from wherever they are and improve them. This is going on every day in schools in America. The complexity of what is going on will never be able to be fully tested by a standardized test.

And, yes, I agree that there is no objective baseline. But, education cannot be totally objectified. It defies the objectification, by its very nature, that the bean counters are seeking. What Maryland and Virginia and Alabama and New York are doing can be different and that's okay. In fact, what certain districts inside these states are doing is probably different and that's okay too. We need a diversity of thinking and approaches to thinking and creating in America. That's our strength. We are unique and we don't need to look like Singapore or Japan or Taiwan or Korea. Free thinking is our strength.

Also, would you want a doctor who follows a strict set of rules for your malady or would you want a doctor who considers your particular body type, health issues, physical history, etc. and then adjusts the protocol based on your individual circumstances?

The best way to make education stronger is to recruit good people, train them well, and let them do the complex job of teaching. Anything else is secondary to this.

Bingo! Best post yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Without testing there's no objective baseline or basis for actually knowing how we are doing in terms of education, there's no way of comparing how Maryland is doing as compared to Virginia as compared to DC, or for that matter Alabama or New York, or Germany, or Singapore. And without knowing how you're doing, you have no means of knowing where you truly excel or where you do in fact need more work, and you have no idea where to look in terms of figuring out how to improve. You're basically flying blind and winging it.

The PSAT and SAT and ACT tests give us information. I don't think we have to worry about the comparison to Germany and Singapore, etc. because they don't have the same breadth of population being counted in their statistics.

The USA has the best universities in the world. People flock here from all over the world because they know we have the best. Our students who go on to these schools are not less than what other countries are producing.

The best schools in America are those that are not defined by certain "standards". They are the schools that take students from wherever they are and improve them. This is going on every day in schools in America. The complexity of what is going on will never be able to be fully tested by a standardized test.

And, yes, I agree that there is no objective baseline. But, education cannot be totally objectified. It defies the objectification, by its very nature, that the bean counters are seeking. What Maryland and Virginia and Alabama and New York are doing can be different and that's okay. In fact, what certain districts inside these states are doing is probably different and that's okay too. We need a diversity of thinking and approaches to thinking and creating in America. That's our strength. We are unique and we don't need to look like Singapore or Japan or Taiwan or Korea. Free thinking is our strength.

Also, would you want a doctor who follows a strict set of rules for your malady or would you want a doctor who considers your particular body type, health issues, physical history, etc. and then adjusts the protocol based on your individual circumstances?

The best way to make education stronger is to recruit good people, train them well, and let them do the complex job of teaching. Anything else is secondary to this.

I would disagree with you on many of your points. PSAT, ACT and SAT only give us information for college-bound students - it doesn't tell us much about the rest of the students. It also doesn't provide any assessment until kids are near graduation. What about the 4th grader who doesn't have an IEP, but can barely read or who can't add 1+1? Isn't that important to identify early on?

Also, our universities are *not* necessarily the best in the world - in fact, university degree programs in the US have become watered down over the last several decades - the typical Engineering degree in the US in many cases is down to less than 125 credits, as opposed to 135+ 20 years ago, and the content is less deep and rigorous than it was. You should take a look at technical programs at universities like Technion in Israel as compared to one in the US and you will see both more content and deeper content than for the corresponding program in the US.

As for "standards" - I visualize you doing air quotes while saying it as though they somehow are meaningless - I doubt you actually have any deep familiarity with the standards. They aren't random, arbitrary or capricious, they are wrapped around a set of concrete, sequential, logical building blocks for education. http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

Sure, education cannot be completely objectified or quantified, but is that any reason for not quantifying and objectifying any of it at all? I don't think so. Nobody is seeking or expecting *complete* objectification, anyhow - CC does not strive for that, it's only a minimal standard, and neither does NCLB, it doesn't even remotely attempt to assess every aspect of educational achievement - it just looks at several key areas.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand this argument. The best US students are as good as students internationally, and so therefore...?

I also don't understand why fractions, for example, would be different in Maryland than in Alabama.

You don't understand because you cannot see the big picture. You only argue discrete points on a line. You view education as a line of discrete points that follow in some sort of progression that makes sense to your way of thinking. You have to get to know many human beings and how they learn and then try to understand how individuals fit into a process called "education". This takes years of experience and a lot of reflection on the whole process. Standardized tests have their place, but they are just one tool (and not, by a long shot, the most significant one). What matters in education is not something the feds can impact very easily, if at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't understand this argument. The best US students are as good as students internationally, and so therefore...?

I also don't understand why fractions, for example, would be different in Maryland than in Alabama.

You don't understand because you cannot see the big picture. You only argue discrete points on a line. You view education as a line of discrete points that follow in some sort of progression that makes sense to your way of thinking. You have to get to know many human beings and how they learn and then try to understand how individuals fit into a process called "education". This takes years of experience and a lot of reflection on the whole process. Standardized tests have their place, but they are just one tool (and not, by a long shot, the most significant one). What matters in education is not something the feds can impact very easily, if at all.

That sounds grand, but it doesn't answer the question of why fractions would be different in Maryland than in Alabama.

[Anonymous]

What about the 4th grader who doesn't have an IEP, but can barely read or who can't add 1+1? Isn't that important to identify early on?

I think this student would have been identified way before a standardized test was given. If this did not happen, there is a REALLY big problem at that school and/or at home. The parent might be refusing testing for learning disabilities? I can't imagine that a teacher would not have been discussing this with parents already.

I would love to hear about how many cases like this the standardized tests have identified and how the school or the feds used this information to intervene on behalf of that 4th grader.

I would also like to know how many students are so jaded that they do not even read the tests and just mark any answer (which even I used to do as a kid because I knew these tests didn't really matter to me).