Former Lt. Gov. Justin Fairfax - murder/suicide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Sweet summer child, that is precisely what the law means for women with children they don’t want to leave. You are showing yourself to be a fool at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Lawyers don't generally tell their clients whether to stay or leave. They advise their clients of the risks of various choices and leave it to the client to decide what risk/benefit they're comfortable with. I really hope this is a wake-up call to the legislature about "desertion" being a ground for at-fault divorce in Virginia.

Well I was worried my ex would stop paying. Virginia doesn't care who pays for stuff so this is another issue. If you leave because of fear but still pay your share and arrange for help for the kids or whatever thats different than just deserting to be with your fling overseas.

The judge has an enormous amount of discretion in deciding what constitutes desertion vs justified departure. That’s why it’s so risky. You don’t know which judge you’ll get, whether they’re a men’s rights activist, and what they’ll personally conclude about the facts and circumstances of your case.

Well at a certain point you need to choose santity and safety. I’m sorry her lawyer wasn’t helping her figure that out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

Well, if you want to keep your kids, there is. You keep on glossing over that.

You don’t lose custody of your kids if you move out and get a temporary custody plan.

You are not helping women here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Lawyers don't generally tell their clients whether to stay or leave. They advise their clients of the risks of various choices and leave it to the client to decide what risk/benefit they're comfortable with. I really hope this is a wake-up call to the legislature about "desertion" being a ground for at-fault divorce in Virginia.

Well I was worried my ex would stop paying. Virginia doesn't care who pays for stuff so this is another issue. If you leave because of fear but still pay your share and arrange for help for the kids or whatever thats different than just deserting to be with your fling overseas.

The judge has an enormous amount of discretion in deciding what constitutes desertion vs justified departure. That’s why it’s so risky. You don’t know which judge you’ll get, whether they’re a men’s rights activist, and what they’ll personally conclude about the facts and circumstances of your case.

Well at a certain point you need to choose santity and safety. I’m sorry her lawyer wasn’t helping her figure that out.

The lawyer would not be doing their job by failing to advise the client of the legal risks associated with any decision, no matter how unjust the risk is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Sweet summer child, that is precisely what the law means for women with children they don’t want to leave. You are showing yourself to be a fool at this point.

So women with children have no possibility other than staying in the home and waiting to get shot. got it!

There are many ways the law could be improved but what I am saying is that if you are a woman in a deteriorating situation you need to figure out how to prioritize correctly even if it means you don’t get exactly what you think is best/fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Lawyers don't generally tell their clients whether to stay or leave. They advise their clients of the risks of various choices and leave it to the client to decide what risk/benefit they're comfortable with. I really hope this is a wake-up call to the legislature about "desertion" being a ground for at-fault divorce in Virginia.

Well I was worried my ex would stop paying. Virginia doesn't care who pays for stuff so this is another issue. If you leave because of fear but still pay your share and arrange for help for the kids or whatever thats different than just deserting to be with your fling overseas.

The judge has an enormous amount of discretion in deciding what constitutes desertion vs justified departure. That’s why it’s so risky. You don’t know which judge you’ll get, whether they’re a men’s rights activist, and what they’ll personally conclude about the facts and circumstances of your case.

Well at a certain point you need to choose santity and safety. I’m sorry her lawyer wasn’t helping her figure that out.

The lawyer would not be doing their job by failing to advise the client of the legal risks associated with any decision, no matter how unjust the risk is.

I’m sorry, no lawyer anywhere is obligated to tell an abused woman she has to stay in the marital home. It’s the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is reported they were in the middle of a messy divorce. So awful.

Ugh. Another layer of awful.

In Virginia, you must be separated for a year in order to get divorced and you can live in the same house while being separated (if you move you it can be seen by the court as abandoning your claim to the house, happened to my cousin). Reports are that the couple had started this process so I am not surprised they were both still living in the house.

Fairfax made an accusation against his wife earlier this year that she had physically assaulted him. Apparently she had cameras in the house and after reviewing the footage the police determined the assault claim wasn't valid and there was a scheduled upcoming court date re this incident which could be what triggered the current awful events.

There were 2 teen sons in the house. This is absolutely awful.

I hope this is a wake up call to change the law re: leaving the home. It forces women into staying in a potentially very dangerous situation.

That and the 1 year separation. What is the purpose??
Tragic.

Maryland recently shortened their one year separation requirement to six months if there are no children in the marriage. I think the rationale is that the state has an interest in wanting couples to be sure they need to get a divorce before they do? Not supporting this.

The part they need to change is about "home abandonment." Fine, make people wait, but don't penalize their assets for leaving to do so.

Can someone point me to the Virginia law(s) that make it financially risky to move out of the house before the divorce is finalized? What an insane game of gotcha for a couple in a contentious divorce. I hate everything about this story.

I don’t know the law but a friend of mine moved out of the marital home while her ex was away on a business trip and he claimed she had abandoned the home (as in abandoned her financial claim to the home) and the judge agreed, so the ex got the house and didn’t have to buy her out. This was 10 years ago in NOVA.

That is an outrageous law.

Virginia is incredible regressive when it comes to women's rights in marriage. It would behoove people outraged to call their elected officials rather than blame and express incredulity toward a woman just murdered by her husband.

I’m in blue California and have a close friend in a situation very similar to Cerina’s and the family court system is incredibly stacked against her. There is hard evidence (photos, witness testimony) of abuse and the courts will still give the abusive SAHD custody and she was told she couldn’t leave the house for abandonment reasons, not that she would have because she would never have left her kids. She was only able to leave when her kids were old enough to state their own wishes and even then, the courts bent over backwards to protect custody for dad, so she pays her documented abuser significant child support but his kids won’t stay with him, so he just pockets the money.

The reasoning behind protecting the abusive spouse is far left progressive perhaps, unlike VA, but the practical anti-woman outcome is the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

Well, if you want to keep your kids, there is. You keep on glossing over that.

You don’t lose custody of your kids if you move out and get a temporary custody plan.

You are not helping women here.

That means leaving the children alone with a violent abuser. Please be honest about what you are recommending women do here. You are saying abused women should move out, leave their minor children alone with a violent abusive man, and hope for the best with a temporary custody order.

Be very honest about what your recommendation for abused women is here. Don’t hide behind vagueness. And then tell us why you think your plan is a good idea for abused women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is reported they were in the middle of a messy divorce. So awful.

Ugh. Another layer of awful.

In Virginia, you must be separated for a year in order to get divorced and you can live in the same house while being separated (if you move you it can be seen by the court as abandoning your claim to the house, happened to my cousin). Reports are that the couple had started this process so I am not surprised they were both still living in the house.

Fairfax made an accusation against his wife earlier this year that she had physically assaulted him. Apparently she had cameras in the house and after reviewing the footage the police determined the assault claim wasn't valid and there was a scheduled upcoming court date re this incident which could be what triggered the current awful events.

There were 2 teen sons in the house. This is absolutely awful.

I hope this is a wake up call to change the law re: leaving the home. It forces women into staying in a potentially very dangerous situation.

That and the 1 year separation. What is the purpose??
Tragic.

Maryland recently shortened their one year separation requirement to six months if there are no children in the marriage. I think the rationale is that the state has an interest in wanting couples to be sure they need to get a divorce before they do? Not supporting this.

The part they need to change is about "home abandonment." Fine, make people wait, but don't penalize their assets for leaving to do so.

Can someone point me to the Virginia law(s) that make it financially risky to move out of the house before the divorce is finalized? What an insane game of gotcha for a couple in a contentious divorce. I hate everything about this story.

I don’t know the law but a friend of mine moved out of the marital home while her ex was away on a business trip and he claimed she had abandoned the home (as in abandoned her financial claim to the home) and the judge agreed, so the ex got the house and didn’t have to buy her out. This was 10 years ago in NOVA.

That is an outrageous law.

Virginia is incredible regressive when it comes to women's rights in marriage. It would behoove people outraged to call their elected officials rather than blame and express incredulity toward a woman just murdered by her husband.

I’m in blue California and have a close friend in a situation very similar to Cerina’s and the family court system is incredibly stacked against her. There is hard evidence (photos, witness testimony) of abuse and the courts will still give the abusive SAHD custody and she was told she couldn’t leave the house for abandonment reasons, not that she would have because she would never have left her kids. She was only able to leave when her kids were old enough to state their own wishes and even then, the courts bent over backwards to protect custody for dad, so she pays her documented abuser significant child support but his kids won’t stay with him, so he just pockets the money.

The reasoning behind protecting the abusive spouse is far left progressive perhaps, unlike VA, but the practical anti-woman outcome is the same.

Please stop this misinformation. Women are always able to leave. (Men too for that matter.) Women need to face reality and pick a healthy living situation and ideally get rid of bad men before the situation becomes extreme.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is reported they were in the middle of a messy divorce. So awful.

Ugh. Another layer of awful.

In Virginia, you must be separated for a year in order to get divorced and you can live in the same house while being separated (if you move you it can be seen by the court as abandoning your claim to the house, happened to my cousin). Reports are that the couple had started this process so I am not surprised they were both still living in the house.

Fairfax made an accusation against his wife earlier this year that she had physically assaulted him. Apparently she had cameras in the house and after reviewing the footage the police determined the assault claim wasn't valid and there was a scheduled upcoming court date re this incident which could be what triggered the current awful events.

There were 2 teen sons in the house. This is absolutely awful.

I hope this is a wake up call to change the law re: leaving the home. It forces women into staying in a potentially very dangerous situation.

That and the 1 year separation. What is the purpose??
Tragic.

Maryland recently shortened their one year separation requirement to six months if there are no children in the marriage. I think the rationale is that the state has an interest in wanting couples to be sure they need to get a divorce before they do? Not supporting this.

The part they need to change is about "home abandonment." Fine, make people wait, but don't penalize their assets for leaving to do so.

Can someone point me to the Virginia law(s) that make it financially risky to move out of the house before the divorce is finalized? What an insane game of gotcha for a couple in a contentious divorce. I hate everything about this story.

I don’t know the law but a friend of mine moved out of the marital home while her ex was away on a business trip and he claimed she had abandoned the home (as in abandoned her financial claim to the home) and the judge agreed, so the ex got the house and didn’t have to buy her out. This was 10 years ago in NOVA.

That is an outrageous law.

Virginia is incredible regressive when it comes to women's rights in marriage. It would behoove people outraged to call their elected officials rather than blame and express incredulity toward a woman just murdered by her husband.

I’m in blue California and have a close friend in a situation very similar to Cerina’s and the family court system is incredibly stacked against her. There is hard evidence (photos, witness testimony) of abuse and the courts will still give the abusive SAHD custody and she was told she couldn’t leave the house for abandonment reasons, not that she would have because she would never have left her kids. She was only able to leave when her kids were old enough to state their own wishes and even then, the courts bent over backwards to protect custody for dad, so she pays her documented abuser significant child support but his kids won’t stay with him, so he just pockets the money.

The reasoning behind protecting the abusive spouse is far left progressive perhaps, unlike VA, but the practical anti-woman outcome is the same.

Neither party cares about women. They are both run by old white dudes and some young ones that believe women are property.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Lawyers don't generally tell their clients whether to stay or leave. They advise their clients of the risks of various choices and leave it to the client to decide what risk/benefit they're comfortable with. I really hope this is a wake-up call to the legislature about "desertion" being a ground for at-fault divorce in Virginia.

Well I was worried my ex would stop paying. Virginia doesn't care who pays for stuff so this is another issue. If you leave because of fear but still pay your share and arrange for help for the kids or whatever thats different than just deserting to be with your fling overseas.

The judge has an enormous amount of discretion in deciding what constitutes desertion vs justified departure. That’s why it’s so risky. You don’t know which judge you’ll get, whether they’re a men’s rights activist, and what they’ll personally conclude about the facts and circumstances of your case.

Well at a certain point you need to choose santity and safety. I’m sorry her lawyer wasn’t helping her figure that out.

The lawyer would not be doing their job by failing to advise the client of the legal risks associated with any decision, no matter how unjust the risk is.

I’m sorry, no lawyer anywhere is obligated to tell an abused woman she has to stay in the marital home. It’s the opposite.

You’re deliberately missing the point. No lawyer says “you must stay in the home.” The lawyer has a very real obligation to explain that in Virginia, deserting the home can make the divorce at-fault. If the woman is found at-fault, than can reduce the allocation of assets, eliminate spousal support, and potentially influence custody decisions. The defense to desertion is “justifiable departure,” but the lawyer has to advise that there is no guarantee the woman will win that defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

Well, if you want to keep your kids, there is. You keep on glossing over that.

You don’t lose custody of your kids if you move out and get a temporary custody plan.

You are not helping women here.

That means leaving the children alone with a violent abuser. Please be honest about what you are recommending women do here. You are saying abused women should move out, leave their minor children alone with a violent abusive man, and hope for the best with a temporary custody order.

Be very honest about what your recommendation for abused women is here. Don’t hide behind vagueness. And then tell us why you think your plan is a good idea for abused women.

Please be honest about what YOU are saying - women have to stay in the same house even with a dramatic breakdown of the relationship. It’s just not true. It is a difficult situation but there are legal options. Not saying it always works out but the idea of complete lack of power and agency is wrong too. Pick yourself up and get out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is reported they were in the middle of a messy divorce. So awful.

Ugh. Another layer of awful.

In Virginia, you must be separated for a year in order to get divorced and you can live in the same house while being separated (if you move you it can be seen by the court as abandoning your claim to the house, happened to my cousin). Reports are that the couple had started this process so I am not surprised they were both still living in the house.

Fairfax made an accusation against his wife earlier this year that she had physically assaulted him. Apparently she had cameras in the house and after reviewing the footage the police determined the assault claim wasn't valid and there was a scheduled upcoming court date re this incident which could be what triggered the current awful events.

There were 2 teen sons in the house. This is absolutely awful.

I hope this is a wake up call to change the law re: leaving the home. It forces women into staying in a potentially very dangerous situation.

That and the 1 year separation. What is the purpose??
Tragic.

Maryland recently shortened their one year separation requirement to six months if there are no children in the marriage. I think the rationale is that the state has an interest in wanting couples to be sure they need to get a divorce before they do? Not supporting this.

The part they need to change is about "home abandonment." Fine, make people wait, but don't penalize their assets for leaving to do so.

Can someone point me to the Virginia law(s) that make it financially risky to move out of the house before the divorce is finalized? What an insane game of gotcha for a couple in a contentious divorce. I hate everything about this story.

I don’t know the law but a friend of mine moved out of the marital home while her ex was away on a business trip and he claimed she had abandoned the home (as in abandoned her financial claim to the home) and the judge agreed, so the ex got the house and didn’t have to buy her out. This was 10 years ago in NOVA.

That is an outrageous law.

Virginia is incredible regressive when it comes to women's rights in marriage. It would behoove people outraged to call their elected officials rather than blame and express incredulity toward a woman just murdered by her husband.

I’m in blue California and have a close friend in a situation very similar to Cerina’s and the family court system is incredibly stacked against her. There is hard evidence (photos, witness testimony) of abuse and the courts will still give the abusive SAHD custody and she was told she couldn’t leave the house for abandonment reasons, not that she would have because she would never have left her kids. She was only able to leave when her kids were old enough to state their own wishes and even then, the courts bent over backwards to protect custody for dad, so she pays her documented abuser significant child support but his kids won’t stay with him, so he just pockets the money.

The reasoning behind protecting the abusive spouse is far left progressive perhaps, unlike VA, but the practical anti-woman outcome is the same.

Please stop this misinformation. Women are always able to leave. (Men too for that matter.) Women need to face reality and pick a healthy living situation and ideally get rid of bad men before the situation becomes extreme.

What misinformation, exactly? What about a situation I have recounted precisely is “misinformation”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some real ogres on this thread.

Mrs. Fairfax is the victim. She likely was trying to do what was best for the kids. So sad.

Remember, at one time she loved him--maybe, she still did. Just proves that if a smart, educated woman cannot figure this out, how can those with fewer advantages?

Yes we know she was the victim. That is totally clear. And maybe this was the inevitable outcome no matter what she did. But I think it is really important for women to know that bad situations can get worse and nothing is worth staying with a spiraling or unstable man. Do what you can to get out even if it means living in a small apartment, your kids switching schools, whatever. Call a lawyer with DV experience and figure it out.

Stop. There is nothing to “figure out” here. She had a lawyer, she had a court proceeding, and the judge was more focused on giving her husband hype talks as if that man had anything good left to salvage, than protecting her.

There is a reason why women in this situation kidnap their kids and go into hiding - it’s because that is your only option. And for a woman who grew up dirt poor, I’m sure she wanted to do all she could to spare her children from that same fate.

She told friends her lawyer advised her she’d risk being found to have abandoned the home if she moved out.

Then she got bad legal advice. There is no legal requirement that you extend the misery of living with someone spiraling for years while a divorce moves forward. Or you prioritize your stability over the prospect that you could lose some equity.

If your spouse started abusing you, you would probably do the same thing. That’s the crux here. You’re so worried about you, you are projecting blame on to her. Please stop. And see a shrink, because you have problems.

What? No. I was in a mildly abusive situation and my friend was in a worse one. Neither of us prioritized some small gain in financial outcomes over getting away from our ex. It is not blaming Celina to say she was poorly advised. It is helping other women.

Some small gain? Seriously? And any situation that ends in murder is not “mildly abusive.” I’m sorry your spouse called you names.

Come back when he filed false reports against you, repeatedly threatened suicide as emotional blackmail, abandoned any financial contribution to his family and started wrecking up debt that could accrue to you, bought a gun with your kids activity money, and spent his days at the bottom of a bottle. And probably threatened to use his law license to make your life (ie your children’s lives) hell.

Then you can instruct is how you got out of that, and I will tell you that maybe you’re not so innocent because you picked an abuser in the first place.

So your idea is that we should advise women they need to stay in the same house as a spiraling, abuse man with a gun because they may give him a ground to claim fault in a divorce?

Lawyers don't generally tell their clients whether to stay or leave. They advise their clients of the risks of various choices and leave it to the client to decide what risk/benefit they're comfortable with. I really hope this is a wake-up call to the legislature about "desertion" being a ground for at-fault divorce in Virginia.

Well I was worried my ex would stop paying. Virginia doesn't care who pays for stuff so this is another issue. If you leave because of fear but still pay your share and arrange for help for the kids or whatever thats different than just deserting to be with your fling overseas.

The judge has an enormous amount of discretion in deciding what constitutes desertion vs justified departure. That’s why it’s so risky. You don’t know which judge you’ll get, whether they’re a men’s rights activist, and what they’ll personally conclude about the facts and circumstances of your case.

Well at a certain point you need to choose santity and safety. I’m sorry her lawyer wasn’t helping her figure that out.

The lawyer would not be doing their job by failing to advise the client of the legal risks associated with any decision, no matter how unjust the risk is.

I’m sorry, no lawyer anywhere is obligated to tell an abused woman she has to stay in the marital home. It’s the opposite.

You’re deliberately missing the point. No lawyer says “you must stay in the home.” The lawyer has a very real obligation to explain that in Virginia, deserting the home can make the divorce at-fault. If the woman is found at-fault, than can reduce the allocation of assets, eliminate spousal support, and potentially influence custody decisions. The defense to desertion is “justifiable departure,” but the lawyer has to advise that there is no guarantee the woman will win that defense.

If a lawyer knows his client or the children are at physical risk in the home then he certainly needs to take steps to prevent that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is reported they were in the middle of a messy divorce. So awful.

Ugh. Another layer of awful.

In Virginia, you must be separated for a year in order to get divorced and you can live in the same house while being separated (if you move you it can be seen by the court as abandoning your claim to the house, happened to my cousin). Reports are that the couple had started this process so I am not surprised they were both still living in the house.

Fairfax made an accusation against his wife earlier this year that she had physically assaulted him. Apparently she had cameras in the house and after reviewing the footage the police determined the assault claim wasn't valid and there was a scheduled upcoming court date re this incident which could be what triggered the current awful events.

There were 2 teen sons in the house. This is absolutely awful.

I hope this is a wake up call to change the law re: leaving the home. It forces women into staying in a potentially very dangerous situation.

That and the 1 year separation. What is the purpose??
Tragic.

Maryland recently shortened their one year separation requirement to six months if there are no children in the marriage. I think the rationale is that the state has an interest in wanting couples to be sure they need to get a divorce before they do? Not supporting this.

The part they need to change is about "home abandonment." Fine, make people wait, but don't penalize their assets for leaving to do so.

Can someone point me to the Virginia law(s) that make it financially risky to move out of the house before the divorce is finalized? What an insane game of gotcha for a couple in a contentious divorce. I hate everything about this story.

I don’t know the law but a friend of mine moved out of the marital home while her ex was away on a business trip and he claimed she had abandoned the home (as in abandoned her financial claim to the home) and the judge agreed, so the ex got the house and didn’t have to buy her out. This was 10 years ago in NOVA.

That is an outrageous law.

Virginia is incredible regressive when it comes to women's rights in marriage. It would behoove people outraged to call their elected officials rather than blame and express incredulity toward a woman just murdered by her husband.

I’m in blue California and have a close friend in a situation very similar to Cerina’s and the family court system is incredibly stacked against her. There is hard evidence (photos, witness testimony) of abuse and the courts will still give the abusive SAHD custody and she was told she couldn’t leave the house for abandonment reasons, not that she would have because she would never have left her kids. She was only able to leave when her kids were old enough to state their own wishes and even then, the courts bent over backwards to protect custody for dad, so she pays her documented abuser significant child support but his kids won’t stay with him, so he just pockets the money.

The reasoning behind protecting the abusive spouse is far left progressive perhaps, unlike VA, but the practical anti-woman outcome is the same.

Please stop this misinformation. Women are always able to leave. (Men too for that matter.) Women need to face reality and pick a healthy living situation and ideally get rid of bad men before the situation becomes extreme.

What misinformation, exactly? What about a situation I have recounted precisely is “misinformation”?

That abused women have no option other than to stay in the home.