Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
Dude, the money comes from us. You are not subsidizing anyone’s private school. It is a union argument.
You are simply allowing those of us who don’t believe in a bloated public school system (after pandemic who could) to opt out. The Dutch fund their schools this way. (The last time I checked you wouldn’t call them Conservatives)
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
Dude, the money comes from us. You are not subsidizing anyone’s private school. It is a union argument.
You are simply allowing those of us who don’t believe in a bloated public school system (after pandemic who could) to opt out. The Dutch fund their schools this way. (The last time I checked you wouldn’t call them Conservatives)
We get it. You DGAF about public schools.
Vouchers take money away from public schools which are underfunded, if anything.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Because vouchers won’t fix public schools.
We know you don’t have any good ideas. So your opinion is irrelevant. You’ve done enough damage.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
Dude, the money comes from us. You are not subsidizing anyone’s private school. It is a union argument.
You are simply allowing those of us who don’t believe in a bloated public school system (after pandemic who could) to opt out. The Dutch fund their schools this way. (The last time I checked you wouldn’t call them Conservatives)
We get it. You DGAF about public schools.
Vouchers take money away from public schools which are underfunded, if anything.
You care more about the buildings and staff than the kids in them. Kids are not your primary concern.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.
But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.
So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?
Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.
Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.
But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.
You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.
DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.
Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.
So you have no real proposals?
Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.
The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.
So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?
Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.
Well at least you admit things are bad. But 'it's bad everywhere!" isn't really a compelling argument as to why we can't take a close look at public schools.
Ok. Schools need fixing. What should we do?
I can only speak to my personal experience, but I think that a fundamental sense of community and "we're in this together" was broken during Covid and has not been repaired. I don't think we can really do anything until we fix that. Families, at worst, feel that they were abandoned by a public school system they'd previously believed was one the rare public supports for families (as a form of education, childcare, and community and connection) that would be a constant. Teachers, at worst, feel that families were trying to sacrifice their well being for the sake of babysitting.
Until you can have a frank conversation with your school community about why decisions were made regarding reopening that will address this loss of trust, I think things will stay broken. When families don't feel that the school cares about their kids well being, or the overall well being of the family, they are unlikely to care about things like meeting attendance targets, improving test scores, raising money for extras to support teachers, etc. And when teachers think families don't care about their health or well being, they are unlikely to invest in the kind of community building that makes schools the kind of place families are excited to send their kids. It will always be a battle.
Both sides have points, by the way. I actually think it's a problem that there was never a true airing of grievances and a chance to come together. We just wallpapered over those wounds and "moved on." But as threads like this show, that didn't work so well. You can ask people to pretend everything is fine but you can't make them actually feel fine.
Huh? That’s been discussed extensively in most school communities. There can be no consensus when some people are irrational and beating a dead horse will never become productive.
Nobody thinks “everything is fine”. Most people just want to address the real issues in the schools today.
Why do you think yours is the only experience? I agree 100% with the PP and don't think that there has ever been a truly open discussion about the pandemic and schools. If we are working for the greater good, sacrifice is sometimes required. Healthy relationships require validation and acknowledgment when sacrifices are made. That hasn't happened.
So here's the thing, PP. Maybe you are well intentioned. But let's face it, we can't have these kinds of discussions anymore. There are people on both sides who will not come to these discussions in good faith. We live in a "Gotcha!" culture right now. Any admission of wrong-doing is grounds for destroying the person who made the mistake. Any discussion of mistakes is fodder for complete rejection of any and all opinions from the other side.
It would be great to be able to look at situations like the pandemic and learn from them, but there are just too many complete jerks out there who don't really care about progress and just want to score points.
So many of us on this thread are saying, over and over, "yes, the pandemic sucked and our kids have suffered." But we are not interested in the point-tallying and the useless blame-game. We want experts to focus on: so what should we do NOW to help kids. What programs are needed. And will all of you complaining get behind funding these programs?
I think many on this thread are part of the crowd just arguing to score points and further degrade the public education system.
I have been posting over and over asking this question, but no one will answer it. I just keep getting attacked. Will we get behind funding these programs? WHAT PROGRAMS? Seriously. Please tell me what programs are recommended. Not a rhetorical question. I don't want vouchers, but I'm not in favor of funding programs that don't exist or aren't targeted.
You are right about the lack of good faith from both sides. I remember starting a thread when schools reopened with my ideas for immediate targeted interventions, including community partnerships, to reestablish connections between schools and families, and set everyone on a better path. A few teachers offered informed ideas, but the rest of the posts were either people denying that anything needed fixing or people rehashing school closing decisions. So frustrating! That was in 2021; sadly, we haven't made much progress.
1:1 tutoring w/individual goals & plan for kids performing below grade level
More reading/math specialists to support more small group work & interventions
Find ways to improve attendance
Continued focus on SEL / mental health
Support & trust teachers
Push school board to give teachers more planning time & less admin crap
We need a novel approach to re-engaging stakeholders. The pandemic experience took its toll on everyone in one way or another, some more than others. The disagreement about school reopening demonstrates our problem that leads to people asking for vouchers - they don't feel they have control over their kids' education, and what's happening now isn't working. Kids are disengaged because they don't see the point, and I'm not sure that SEL is helpful.
Positive involvement and support must be developed through respectful and honest two-way communication. Parents should stop blaming teachers for school closures, but educators should understand that many families did not fare well during the pandemic and are still recovering. School closures caused many families to struggle, and we are seeing that many adults and students didn't bounce back quickly. Blackmailing parents with statements like, "If you raise this perfectly valid concern, it's your fault that teachers are leaving," helps no one. If schools are cracking down on student absences, are there similar expectations for teacher attendance? Honestly, "reforms" like making parents take their kids to a doctor every time they get a cold so that their absence can be excused probably isn't going to help anything.
Many parents are disengaged because they feel judged, incompetent, helpless, or overwhelmed with financial, health, time, or other issues. Some of that was because of the pandemic and school closures. As we deal with these issues, it seems that at every turn, more is being demanded of us. When did it become parents' responsibility to spend their limited free time trying to change working conditions for teachers? Why are we shaming parents and students who are disengaged from learning in a system that even teachers say isn't working? It's not healthy to say you get what you get, and if it doesn't work for you, it's totally your fault, not ours. Be my partner, but don't ask questions. It's unsustainable. We should think of small changes that can help parents feel more successful and empower them to participate more in their kids' learning.
People are maxed out. We need to think about these relationships and what are reasonable expectations for each other.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
Dude, the money comes from us. You are not subsidizing anyone’s private school. It is a union argument.
You are simply allowing those of us who don’t believe in a bloated public school system (after pandemic who could) to opt out. The Dutch fund their schools this way. (The last time I checked you wouldn’t call them Conservatives)
We get it. You DGAF about public schools.
Vouchers take money away from public schools which are underfunded, if anything.
You care more about the buildings and staff than the kids in them. Kids are not your primary concern.
Kids are absolutely the concern.
Vouchers take money away from educating public school students.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Because vouchers won’t fix public schools.
We know you don’t have any good ideas. So your opinion is irrelevant. You’ve done enough damage.
I haven’t done any damage and I already posted a list of things we can do.
Vouchers aren’t on the list because they hurt public schools/students.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
Dude, the money comes from us. You are not subsidizing anyone’s private school. It is a union argument.
You are simply allowing those of us who don’t believe in a bloated public school system (after pandemic who could) to opt out. The Dutch fund their schools this way. (The last time I checked you wouldn’t call them Conservatives)
We get it. You DGAF about public schools.
Vouchers take money away from public schools which are underfunded, if anything.
You care more about the buildings and staff than the kids in them. Kids are not your primary concern.
Kids are absolutely the concern.
Vouchers take money away from educating public school students.
I’m ambivalent about vouchers but please - if you were a pro-closure advocate you have zero credibility here.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.
But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.
So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?
Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.
Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.
But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.
You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.
DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.
Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.
So you have no real proposals?
Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.
The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.
So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?
Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.
Well at least you admit things are bad. But 'it's bad everywhere!" isn't really a compelling argument as to why we can't take a close look at public schools.
Ok. Schools need fixing. What should we do?
I can only speak to my personal experience, but I think that a fundamental sense of community and "we're in this together" was broken during Covid and has not been repaired. I don't think we can really do anything until we fix that. Families, at worst, feel that they were abandoned by a public school system they'd previously believed was one the rare public supports for families (as a form of education, childcare, and community and connection) that would be a constant. Teachers, at worst, feel that families were trying to sacrifice their well being for the sake of babysitting.
Until you can have a frank conversation with your school community about why decisions were made regarding reopening that will address this loss of trust, I think things will stay broken. When families don't feel that the school cares about their kids well being, or the overall well being of the family, they are unlikely to care about things like meeting attendance targets, improving test scores, raising money for extras to support teachers, etc. And when teachers think families don't care about their health or well being, they are unlikely to invest in the kind of community building that makes schools the kind of place families are excited to send their kids. It will always be a battle.
Both sides have points, by the way. I actually think it's a problem that there was never a true airing of grievances and a chance to come together. We just wallpapered over those wounds and "moved on." But as threads like this show, that didn't work so well. You can ask people to pretend everything is fine but you can't make them actually feel fine.
Huh? That’s been discussed extensively in most school communities. There can be no consensus when some people are irrational and beating a dead horse will never become productive.
Nobody thinks “everything is fine”. Most people just want to address the real issues in the schools today.
Why do you think yours is the only experience? I agree 100% with the PP and don't think that there has ever been a truly open discussion about the pandemic and schools. If we are working for the greater good, sacrifice is sometimes required. Healthy relationships require validation and acknowledgment when sacrifices are made. That hasn't happened.
So here's the thing, PP. Maybe you are well intentioned. But let's face it, we can't have these kinds of discussions anymore. There are people on both sides who will not come to these discussions in good faith. We live in a "Gotcha!" culture right now. Any admission of wrong-doing is grounds for destroying the person who made the mistake. Any discussion of mistakes is fodder for complete rejection of any and all opinions from the other side.
It would be great to be able to look at situations like the pandemic and learn from them, but there are just too many complete jerks out there who don't really care about progress and just want to score points.
So many of us on this thread are saying, over and over, "yes, the pandemic sucked and our kids have suffered." But we are not interested in the point-tallying and the useless blame-game. We want experts to focus on: so what should we do NOW to help kids. What programs are needed. And will all of you complaining get behind funding these programs?
I think many on this thread are part of the crowd just arguing to score points and further degrade the public education system.
I have been posting over and over asking this question, but no one will answer it. I just keep getting attacked. Will we get behind funding these programs? WHAT PROGRAMS? Seriously. Please tell me what programs are recommended. Not a rhetorical question. I don't want vouchers, but I'm not in favor of funding programs that don't exist or aren't targeted.
You are right about the lack of good faith from both sides. I remember starting a thread when schools reopened with my ideas for immediate targeted interventions, including community partnerships, to reestablish connections between schools and families, and set everyone on a better path. A few teachers offered informed ideas, but the rest of the posts were either people denying that anything needed fixing or people rehashing school closing decisions. So frustrating! That was in 2021; sadly, we haven't made much progress.
1:1 tutoring w/individual goals & plan for kids performing below grade level
More reading/math specialists to support more small group work & interventions
Find ways to improve attendance
Continued focus on SEL / mental health
Support & trust teachers
Push school board to give teachers more planning time & less admin crap
We need a novel approach to re-engaging stakeholders. The pandemic experience took its toll on everyone in one way or another, some more than others. The disagreement about school reopening demonstrates our problem that leads to people asking for vouchers - they don't feel they have control over their kids' education, and what's happening now isn't working. Kids are disengaged because they don't see the point, and I'm not sure that SEL is helpful.
Positive involvement and support must be developed through respectful and honest two-way communication. Parents should stop blaming teachers for school closures, but educators should understand that many families did not fare well during the pandemic and are still recovering. School closures caused many families to struggle, and we are seeing that many adults and students didn't bounce back quickly. Blackmailing parents with statements like, "If you raise this perfectly valid concern, it's your fault that teachers are leaving," helps no one. If schools are cracking down on student absences, are there similar expectations for teacher attendance? Honestly, "reforms" like making parents take their kids to a doctor every time they get a cold so that their absence can be excused probably isn't going to help anything.
Many parents are disengaged because they feel judged, incompetent, helpless, or overwhelmed with financial, health, time, or other issues. Some of that was because of the pandemic and school closures. As we deal with these issues, it seems that at every turn, more is being demanded of us. When did it become parents' responsibility to spend their limited free time trying to change working conditions for teachers? Why are we shaming parents and students who are disengaged from learning in a system that even teachers say isn't working? It's not healthy to say you get what you get, and if it doesn't work for you, it's totally your fault, not ours. Be my partner, but don't ask questions. It's unsustainable. We should think of small changes that can help parents feel more successful and empower them to participate more in their kids' learning.
People are maxed out. We need to think about these relationships and what are reasonable expectations for each other.
Omg. Educators absolutely understand that. They live it every day. They are experiencing it themselves.
Not all parents are going to be engaged. That’s fine. Do what you can. At a minimum, parents should stop trashing schools/teachers. It’s not helpful.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.
But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.
So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?
Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.
Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.
But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.
You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.
DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.
Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.
So you have no real proposals?
Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.
The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.
So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?
Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.
Well at least you admit things are bad. But 'it's bad everywhere!" isn't really a compelling argument as to why we can't take a close look at public schools.
Ok. Schools need fixing. What should we do?
I can only speak to my personal experience, but I think that a fundamental sense of community and "we're in this together" was broken during Covid and has not been repaired. I don't think we can really do anything until we fix that. Families, at worst, feel that they were abandoned by a public school system they'd previously believed was one the rare public supports for families (as a form of education, childcare, and community and connection) that would be a constant. Teachers, at worst, feel that families were trying to sacrifice their well being for the sake of babysitting.
Until you can have a frank conversation with your school community about why decisions were made regarding reopening that will address this loss of trust, I think things will stay broken. When families don't feel that the school cares about their kids well being, or the overall well being of the family, they are unlikely to care about things like meeting attendance targets, improving test scores, raising money for extras to support teachers, etc. And when teachers think families don't care about their health or well being, they are unlikely to invest in the kind of community building that makes schools the kind of place families are excited to send their kids. It will always be a battle.
Both sides have points, by the way. I actually think it's a problem that there was never a true airing of grievances and a chance to come together. We just wallpapered over those wounds and "moved on." But as threads like this show, that didn't work so well. You can ask people to pretend everything is fine but you can't make them actually feel fine.
Huh? That’s been discussed extensively in most school communities. There can be no consensus when some people are irrational and beating a dead horse will never become productive.
Nobody thinks “everything is fine”. Most people just want to address the real issues in the schools today.
Why do you think yours is the only experience? I agree 100% with the PP and don't think that there has ever been a truly open discussion about the pandemic and schools. If we are working for the greater good, sacrifice is sometimes required. Healthy relationships require validation and acknowledgment when sacrifices are made. That hasn't happened.
So here's the thing, PP. Maybe you are well intentioned. But let's face it, we can't have these kinds of discussions anymore. There are people on both sides who will not come to these discussions in good faith. We live in a "Gotcha!" culture right now. Any admission of wrong-doing is grounds for destroying the person who made the mistake. Any discussion of mistakes is fodder for complete rejection of any and all opinions from the other side.
It would be great to be able to look at situations like the pandemic and learn from them, but there are just too many complete jerks out there who don't really care about progress and just want to score points.
So many of us on this thread are saying, over and over, "yes, the pandemic sucked and our kids have suffered." But we are not interested in the point-tallying and the useless blame-game. We want experts to focus on: so what should we do NOW to help kids. What programs are needed. And will all of you complaining get behind funding these programs?
I think many on this thread are part of the crowd just arguing to score points and further degrade the public education system.
I have been posting over and over asking this question, but no one will answer it. I just keep getting attacked. Will we get behind funding these programs? WHAT PROGRAMS? Seriously. Please tell me what programs are recommended. Not a rhetorical question. I don't want vouchers, but I'm not in favor of funding programs that don't exist or aren't targeted.
You are right about the lack of good faith from both sides. I remember starting a thread when schools reopened with my ideas for immediate targeted interventions, including community partnerships, to reestablish connections between schools and families, and set everyone on a better path. A few teachers offered informed ideas, but the rest of the posts were either people denying that anything needed fixing or people rehashing school closing decisions. So frustrating! That was in 2021; sadly, we haven't made much progress.
1:1 tutoring w/individual goals & plan for kids performing below grade level
More reading/math specialists to support more small group work & interventions
Find ways to improve attendance
Continued focus on SEL / mental health
Support & trust teachers
Push school board to give teachers more planning time & less admin crap
We need a novel approach to re-engaging stakeholders. The pandemic experience took its toll on everyone in one way or another, some more than others. The disagreement about school reopening demonstrates our problem that leads to people asking for vouchers - they don't feel they have control over their kids' education, and what's happening now isn't working. Kids are disengaged because they don't see the point, and I'm not sure that SEL is helpful.
Positive involvement and support must be developed through respectful and honest two-way communication. Parents should stop blaming teachers for school closures, but educators should understand that many families did not fare well during the pandemic and are still recovering. School closures caused many families to struggle, and we are seeing that many adults and students didn't bounce back quickly. Blackmailing parents with statements like, "If you raise this perfectly valid concern, it's your fault that teachers are leaving," helps no one. If schools are cracking down on student absences, are there similar expectations for teacher attendance? Honestly, "reforms" like making parents take their kids to a doctor every time they get a cold so that their absence can be excused probably isn't going to help anything.
Many parents are disengaged because they feel judged, incompetent, helpless, or overwhelmed with financial, health, time, or other issues. Some of that was because of the pandemic and school closures. As we deal with these issues, it seems that at every turn, more is being demanded of us. When did it become parents' responsibility to spend their limited free time trying to change working conditions for teachers? Why are we shaming parents and students who are disengaged from learning in a system that even teachers say isn't working? It's not healthy to say you get what you get, and if it doesn't work for you, it's totally your fault, not ours. Be my partner, but don't ask questions. It's unsustainable. We should think of small changes that can help parents feel more successful and empower them to participate more in their kids' learning.
People are maxed out. We need to think about these relationships and what are reasonable expectations for each other.
Omg. Educators absolutely understand that. They live it every day. They are experiencing it themselves.
Not all parents are going to be engaged. That’s fine. Do what you can. At a minimum, parents should stop trashing schools/teachers. It’s not helpful.
+1. Also, there were a lot of parents who were not willing to send their kids back before there was a vaccine. Yes, we understood that virtual school wasn't the "best" way to learn, but when your community gets hit hard by Covid and you see a lot of people in your age group getting very sick and a few die, the risk of having your kid bring it back home to you or your elderly parents who live with you isn't something you're willing to chance in many cases.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Because vouchers won’t fix public schools.
We know you don’t have any good ideas. So your opinion is irrelevant. You’ve done enough damage.
I haven’t done any damage and I already posted a list of things we can do.
Vouchers aren’t on the list because they hurt public schools/students.
School closures also hurt kids, but you supported those whole heartedly. You have zero credibility.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Because vouchers won’t fix public schools.
No but they will fund better results at lower cost at private institutions. This will force public schools to do the same or go the way of the dinosaur.
Competition makes everyone better. Equity makes everyone mediocre at best.
Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.
+ a billion.
Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.
Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.
Worried you will lose your job?
What?
What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?
My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.
Some of you are kind of crazy.
Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?
And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.
Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?
Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.
You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.
I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.
It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.
Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.
The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.
(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)
How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?
Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.
Exactly.
Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.
Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.
So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?
I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.
At least you admit your bias.
Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.
You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.
OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.
Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.
I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.
DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.
Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.
They opened without evidence.
Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.
“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.
You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.
What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.
The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.
In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.
You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.
You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.
That’s not how science works…
Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).
So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.
We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.
This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?
No, but I’m not responsible for the health of millions of people.
In countries with universal healthcare and therefore where policymakers are actually "responsible for the health of millions of people" .... they did everything possible to OPEN schools in September 2020.
So are you pushing for universal healthcare here?
In principle I would, in practice I see the disaster in universal education in this country because so many prioritize politics over sound policy.
Fire anyone who was responsible for stealing years of education from millions of children. That should be step number 1 in fixing this.
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
What do you want their replacements to do?
And then what? Who will backfill those positions?
PLENTY OF BETTER QUALIFIED PEOPLE OUT THERE -- YOU HIRE THEM.
And then what?
THEY FOCUS ON THEIR JOB: EDUCATING CHILDREN.
Are there? There is a massive shortage of teachers and teachers unions where the ones pushing closure the hardest
DP. Yep, and with parents like the ones on this board and all the other politically-motivated nonsense going on right now, who is going to want to fill those positions? Answer = no one.
Which is why we need to fire anyone in the unions, boards and districts who made this disaster take place.
Untill that happens it's all mere empty words.
If we fire people, and no one wants to fill the positions, how does this help kids???????????
It doesn’t help kids. PP DGAF about public school kids.
It does hurt public schools (and our kids). It gives the pro-voucher clowns more excuses for why taxpayers should subsidize their private school education.
You don't care if your kids were hurt. They were sacrificial lambs in the grand experiment. So don't pretend you care now.
I absolutely care then and I care now.
And I see the way to help kids now is to support schools, not tear them down for ulterior political motives.
What specifically are you doing to support schools other than accusing others of wanting vouchers?
That’s certainly the goal for some posters here - they clearly admitted it.
Just gave my personal list of ideas.
Why are you attacking ideas you don’t agree with? None of us is responsible to make any of it happen any way, right?
Because vouchers won’t fix public schools.
We know you don’t have any good ideas. So your opinion is irrelevant. You’ve done enough damage.
I haven’t done any damage and I already posted a list of things we can do.
Vouchers aren’t on the list because they hurt public schools/students.
School closures also hurt kids, but you supported those whole heartedly. You have zero credibility.
I wasn’t pushing for them to stay virtual, but I did acknowledge that the school districts were taking a reasonable approach. I supported the teachers who were doing the best they could under crazy circumstances.
Vouchers will hurt our public school kids. You want to hurt them more?
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