Summer swim absurd age rules

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

Again, redshirting is not allowed in some districts. Also, you are hyper-fixated on boys and athletics, as though those are the main considerations for kids when starting school. You're being myopic.

I do think it's funny though that in a thread filled with people who are mad about the summer swim age cut offs as "unfair," we also have a person calling people "silly" for not redshirting their kids.

Apparently if you have a child with a summer birthday, you'r a bad parent for allowing them to follow the age rules of summer swim, but also a bad parent for not bending the age rules for school.

Don't get pregnant in September-December folks, if you can help it. It's super inconvenient for other people!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Redshirting also means your kid can drive his own ass to AM practice as a sophomore. Hallelujah! If you didn’t do it, you’re missing out 😝

Lol. It’s far more dangerous to like a new driver dive early am after late night of swim and homework than sending them to college at 17.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

They aren’t more mature, they are older. They are less mature when you compare them by age and they did not get the opportunity for the maturity when they are with younger peers. Being 13 for a few weeks of he is no big deal over being 18 all of senior year and starting college at 19. You are doing that for your needs, not your child’s. If sports is everything to you it speaks volumes. I know several kids who missed the cut off and wished they were a grade ahead. They don’t look like they fit in to the younger grade and they are smart kids so academically they are behind their true peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

So very few equals roughly 15 percent of kids. Good to know.

15 percent of kids who participate in summer swim have June and July bdays? Where do you figure that? 15% is a small number—the vast majority of kids swimming in the summer are not “old”, and those that are only have a max two month “advantage”. Stop with this stupidity.

It's basic math. If assume birthdays are fairly evenly distributed throughout the year, which is a decent assumption for a large population, then about 8 percent of kids will have a birthday in any randomly selected month. All of June plus most of July gives you about 15 percent. It would be interesting though to see if there's any self-selection bias with those summer bday kids choosing to participate in summer swim at high rates than the general population or at significantly different rates than the kids with spring birthdays.

Emphasis on basic. You have no idea how many of those kids swim, what percentage of the summer swim cadre have June/July bdays, and whether or not they disproportionately win events or swim faster. You are wayyyy overthinking and yet, under thinking this. When your spring bday kid is a senior and the non-redshirts don’t come back to swim their last eligible year, they’ll have an “advantage” at that point, just relax.

I don't have a dog in the fight. I was only chiming in to point out that by divisionals there are more than a few over age kids. By that point, there are probably more than 1,000 kids in NVSL, as an example, whose age exceeds their assigned age group. Though not all of them will swim in divisionals. As for your reference to seniors, I would say that the advantages of being oldest really show up in the early ages when kids are making big gains in terms of time drops per year. Which partially explains why you see so many 9 year olds and 11 year olds winning All-Stars in the 8&u and 9-10 categories.

[Anonymous]

Not many people really care who wins Divisionals or All Stars. This is not something your kid will put on a college or private school app. There has to be an age cutoff /rule that does not create nonsensical administrative burdens for these volunteer-run swim teams.

[Anonymous]

They are not over age. They are placed in an age group according to the NVSL rules. No one is cheating unless they’re faking their birthdates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

They aren’t more mature, they are older. They are less mature when you compare them by age and they did not get the opportunity for the maturity when they are with younger peers. Being 13 for a few weeks of he is no big deal over being 18 all of senior year and starting college at 19. You are doing that for your needs, not your child’s. If sports is everything to you it speaks volumes. I know several kids who missed the cut off and wished they were a grade ahead. They don’t look like they fit in to the younger grade and they are smart kids so academically they are behind their true peers.

Don’t take my word on it, the social science pretty much supports starting school at closer to six than 5, particularly for boys. Sorry you didn’t know that when you made your decision.

[Anonymous]

To refute earlier assumptions, there is clear scientific evidence that family planning is conducted around summer swim cutoff dates: https://www.panix.com/~murphy/bday.html

Changing the June 1 date to anything else would upset the natural order of everything and plunge to world into chaos. Leave well enough alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To refute earlier assumptions, there is clear scientific evidence that family planning is conducted around summer swim cutoff dates: https://www.panix.com/~murphy/bday.html

Changing the June 1 date to anything else would upset the natural order of everything and plunge to world into chaos. Leave well enough alone.

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

They aren’t more mature, they are older. They are less mature when you compare them by age and they did not get the opportunity for the maturity when they are with younger peers. Being 13 for a few weeks of he is no big deal over being 18 all of senior year and starting college at 19. You are doing that for your needs, not your child’s. If sports is everything to you it speaks volumes. I know several kids who missed the cut off and wished they were a grade ahead. They don’t look like they fit in to the younger grade and they are smart kids so academically they are behind their true peers.

Don’t take my word on it, the social science pretty much supports starting school at closer to six than 5, particularly for boys. Sorry you didn’t know that when you made your decision.

I’m a social scientist and: no it doesn’t. A few studies have shown a slight academic advantage for redshirting (correalational, no causation proven). Studies also show this advantage likely fades by 2nd grade, well before grades “count.” Social impacts are much harder to assess due to the number of variables but there’s no known scientific correlation.

Now, on an individual basis, redshirting can make sense. But this will be based on the individual child’s social and brain development, not a statistical correlation. But that means there will also be individual kids who, based on development, should not be redshirted.

None of this has anything to do with summer swim, it’s just annoying when the weird redshirting evangelists creep along. No one cares that you redshirted your kid! Move along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

They aren’t more mature, they are older. They are less mature when you compare them by age and they did not get the opportunity for the maturity when they are with younger peers. Being 13 for a few weeks of he is no big deal over being 18 all of senior year and starting college at 19. You are doing that for your needs, not your child’s. If sports is everything to you it speaks volumes. I know several kids who missed the cut off and wished they were a grade ahead. They don’t look like they fit in to the younger grade and they are smart kids so academically they are behind their true peers.

Don’t take my word on it, the social science pretty much supports starting school at closer to six than 5, particularly for boys. Sorry you didn’t know that when you made your decision.

I’m a social scientist and: no it doesn’t. A few studies have shown a slight academic advantage for redshirting (correalational, no causation proven). Studies also show this advantage likely fades by 2nd grade, well before grades “count.” Social impacts are much harder to assess due to the number of variables but there’s no known scientific correlation.

Now, on an individual basis, redshirting can make sense. But this will be based on the individual child’s social and brain development, not a statistical correlation. But that means there will also be individual kids who, based on development, should not be redshirted.

None of this has anything to do with summer swim, it’s just annoying when the weird redshirting evangelists creep along. No one cares that you redshirted your kid! Move along.

Oh they care.

And this article in the subject was a good read: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/boys-delayed-entry-school-start-redshirting/671238/

[Anonymous]

The PP is indirectly suggesting the 8&u boys group in summer swim should include all the 9 year old boys instead of some of them. Redshirt the boys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The PP is indirectly suggesting the 8&u boys group in summer swim should include all the 9 year old boys instead of some of them. Redshirt the boys.

Hell is other parents!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year my summer bday kid was top in their age division and multiple people brought it up to my H and I. We thought it was really weird, all things have age cutoffs that impact kids differently. All the grade year cutoff sports make my kid the youngest on the team.

We assumed they’d be back swimming at B meets this year since they were at the bottom of the age bracket. That turned out not to be the case and they were top for the age group this year. No one mentioned their age to us. I have no doubt that next year or the following year a club swimmer will pass them and my kid understands that. They prefer other sports during the rest of the year.

I guess those of us with summer bday kids are more accustomed to age cutoff issues and that’s why summer swim age comes up year after year but not so much in other sports.

Summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket. At worst, they are in the middle of the distribution for each two-year age group.

I know you are talking about summer swim, of course, but saying "summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket" is hilarious to anyone who actually has a kid with a summer birthday. Unless you redshirt, they are literally ALWAYS at the bottom of the age bracket. Except in summer swim, assuming they have a July/August bday and not June.

So true! My summer bday kid played flag football against a kid who was 3 years and change older than him b/c the kid was redshirted and the league does it by grade level. He looked like a giant next to my kid (who thought it was really cool to be "defending" against a big kid).

How do you get to 3 years by redshirting 1 year?

It was grades 3-5. My kid was 3rd with summer bday redshirt kid was 5th with a May bday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

How would sending a summer bday kid on time to kindergarten equate to sending them to college at 17? I’m a summer bday and I entered college at 18. Yes, the kids who are born the past week of august will be 17 years 11 months and 3 weeks.

Where we live I rarely see kids redshirted. I can think of only one in my sons grade. Several August boys. I know of an October kid who tested in early as well. They all seem perfectly fine academically and socially.