Summer swim absurd age rules

[Anonymous]

Next year NVSL will use an age adjusted formula to determine all winners. Similar to how power points are calculated in club swim but with more fidelity (i.e., age to the month instead of year). Input data will be collected during Saturday A meets, scaled using age-adjustment weighting factors, recompiled and accessed in a virtual meet style event with the final official team results announced Tuesday evening. It might take longer but at least kids at the bottom of the age group will have a shot at pulling off those virtual wins on a level playing field. Waiting for the Tuesday evening results to post will be exhilarating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Next year NVSL will use an age adjusted formula to determine all winners. Similar to how power points are calculated in club swim but with more fidelity (i.e., age to the month instead of year). Input data will be collected during Saturday A meets, scaled using age-adjustment weighting factors, recompiled and accessed in a virtual meet style event with the final official team results announced Tuesday evening. It might take longer but at least kids at the bottom of the age group will have a shot at pulling off those virtual wins on a level playing field. Waiting for the Tuesday evening results to post will be exhilarating.

Only to the month? That would be totally unfair to kids born at the end of the month! It should be to the hour.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Next year NVSL will use an age adjusted formula to determine all winners. Similar to how power points are calculated in club swim but with more fidelity (i.e., age to the month instead of year). Input data will be collected during Saturday A meets, scaled using age-adjustment weighting factors, recompiled and accessed in a virtual meet style event with the final official team results announced Tuesday evening. It might take longer but at least kids at the bottom of the age group will have a shot at pulling off those virtual wins on a level playing field. Waiting for the Tuesday evening results to post will be exhilarating.

Only to the month? That would be totally unfair to kids born at the end of the month! It should be to the hour.

In the digital world anything is possible. Want to build an elite summer swim program? Find yourself an analytics intern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year my summer bday kid was top in their age division and multiple people brought it up to my H and I. We thought it was really weird, all things have age cutoffs that impact kids differently. All the grade year cutoff sports make my kid the youngest on the team.

We assumed they’d be back swimming at B meets this year since they were at the bottom of the age bracket. That turned out not to be the case and they were top for the age group this year. No one mentioned their age to us. I have no doubt that next year or the following year a club swimmer will pass them and my kid understands that. They prefer other sports during the rest of the year.

I guess those of us with summer bday kids are more accustomed to age cutoff issues and that’s why summer swim age comes up year after year but not so much in other sports.

Summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket. At worst, they are in the middle of the distribution for each two-year age group.

I know you are talking about summer swim, of course, but saying "summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket" is hilarious to anyone who actually has a kid with a summer birthday. Unless you redshirt, they are literally ALWAYS at the bottom of the age bracket. Except in summer swim, assuming they have a July/August bday and not June.

So true! My summer bday kid played flag football against a kid who was 3 years and change older than him b/c the kid was redshirted and the league does it by grade level. He looked like a giant next to my kid (who thought it was really cool to be "defending" against a big kid).

[Anonymous]

If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

So very few equals roughly 15 percent of kids. Good to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Last year my summer bday kid was top in their age division and multiple people brought it up to my H and I. We thought it was really weird, all things have age cutoffs that impact kids differently. All the grade year cutoff sports make my kid the youngest on the team.

We assumed they’d be back swimming at B meets this year since they were at the bottom of the age bracket. That turned out not to be the case and they were top for the age group this year. No one mentioned their age to us. I have no doubt that next year or the following year a club swimmer will pass them and my kid understands that. They prefer other sports during the rest of the year.

I guess those of us with summer bday kids are more accustomed to age cutoff issues and that’s why summer swim age comes up year after year but not so much in other sports.

Summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket. At worst, they are in the middle of the distribution for each two-year age group.

I know you are talking about summer swim, of course, but saying "summer bday kids are never really at the bottom of the age bracket" is hilarious to anyone who actually has a kid with a summer birthday. Unless you redshirt, they are literally ALWAYS at the bottom of the age bracket. Except in summer swim, assuming they have a July/August bday and not June.

So true! My summer bday kid played flag football against a kid who was 3 years and change older than him b/c the kid was redshirted and the league does it by grade level. He looked like a giant next to my kid (who thought it was really cool to be "defending" against a big kid).

How do you get to 3 years by redshirting 1 year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

So very few equals roughly 15 percent of kids. Good to know.

15 percent of kids who participate in summer swim have June and July bdays? Where do you figure that? 15% is a small number—the vast majority of kids swimming in the summer are not “old”, and those that are only have a max two month “advantage”. Stop with this stupidity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

Some school districts do not permit redshirting. Some children are already reading by the time K starts or otherwise academically advanced in ways that make redshirting look like a bad idea. Redshirting a kid who is academically and socially ready for kindergarten because you don't like the idea of a kid being 17 for a week in college is weird.

But in any case, most parents don't redshirt and for those kids, summer swim (if they even do it) is likely the only time in their childhood where their birthday and age versus peers will offer them a competitive edge.

All things being equal a 18 going on 19 year old boy is going to be more mature and ready for college. And also better at college sports. I wholly advocate holding those kids back at K. Starting high school as a 13 year old boy really sucks too. Speaking from experience, as a child who had a late fall bday and was NOT held back. Again, it’s a debate for another forum but there are very good reasons to redshirt, ver few not to.

[Anonymous]

Redshirting also means your kid can drive his own ass to AM practice as a sophomore. Hallelujah! If you didn’t do it, you’re missing out 😝

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

So very few equals roughly 15 percent of kids. Good to know.

15 percent of kids who participate in summer swim have June and July bdays? Where do you figure that? 15% is a small number—the vast majority of kids swimming in the summer are not “old”, and those that are only have a max two month “advantage”. Stop with this stupidity.

It's basic math. If assume birthdays are fairly evenly distributed throughout the year, which is a decent assumption for a large population, then about 8 percent of kids will have a birthday in any randomly selected month. All of June plus most of July gives you about 15 percent. It would be interesting though to see if there's any self-selection bias with those summer bday kids choosing to participate in summer swim at high rates than the general population or at significantly different rates than the kids with spring birthdays.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I still don't see why having an August 1st cutoff date is a non starter? Wouldn't that solve this entire debate?

No it would just change the groups of kids advantaged and disadvantaged.

I heard the reason they put 6/1 as the cut off is so the kids would be the same age for the entire summer swim season. I don't think an 8/1 cut off would help fix that problem. 6/1 is the only one that works.

8/1 would work the same. Whatever age you would be on 8/1 is the age you swim for the whole season. So instead of kids with June/July birthdays swimming down to the age they were on June 1st, they would swim up to the age they will be on August 1st. It disadvantages the summer birthday kids though, instead of the current advantage they get.

But isn't that just as arbitrary? What does it fix over picking 6/1?

I didn’t say it would fix anything, I was responding to an incorrect post that stated using 6/1 was the only way someone would swim in the same age group the whole season. 6/1 and 8/1 are equally arbitrary. I find the passion people have for the 6/1 deadline to be a little over the top though given that it is just as arbitrary as 8/1. My club swimmer, a May birthday kid, could not care less about the cutoff. It’s summer swim, she’s a top swimmer regardless. She cares more that she has a good club short course season birthday.

Here's the thing. I probably come across as passionate. But what I really feel strongly is that people who sense that someone else has something and then throw a tantrum shouldn't get things changed in their favor. I mean someone is going to benefit. I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be my kids, but someone else throwing a tantrum to get it changed so that their kid has the benefit and making up stuff about how "all the rest of swimming does it this way" when they don't, and saying horrible things about kids who legitimately win and set records shouldn't win by getting it changed so their kid is the one who happens to be advantaged. Like I don't really care what the date is, except I don't want it to be whatever benefits horrible people like OP.

And then the fact that most of the people who are whining seem to be kids who swim club and rec, which is seen as cheating in pretty much every other sport, is so ironic.

As someone whose kid does club and summer I do see your point on the last comment. For us, it was summer swim that led DC to want to do club so they could improve for summer. If doing club prohibited summer, I imagine you’d see a lot lower PVS registrations and a lot more for organizations like Swim Farm, Norman etc.

To be clear, I think the club kids should be welcome. But I am just pointing out that when a kid who has a billion hours of expensive coaching loses to my kid who only swims summer and then whines that it doesn’t have anything to do with my kid’s hard work or talent and wouldn’t count if we did things the way USA swimming does it, I get annoyed.

Summer swimming seems somewhat unique in that you have what are essentially travel kids, some at high levels, competing against very rec-level athletes. The year round swimmers and families love it because for 2 months they are treated like rock stars and they act like it! I know because I was that year round swimmer when I was a kid, then a summer coach, and I now have kids who do (just) summer swimming. My kids like summer swimming regardless, but laugh at the ridiculousness of e.g., doing their sport that they do all year against kids who only do it for 8 weeks a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

So very few equals roughly 15 percent of kids. Good to know.

15 percent of kids who participate in summer swim have June and July bdays? Where do you figure that? 15% is a small number—the vast majority of kids swimming in the summer are not “old”, and those that are only have a max two month “advantage”. Stop with this stupidity.

It's basic math. If assume birthdays are fairly evenly distributed throughout the year, which is a decent assumption for a large population, then about 8 percent of kids will have a birthday in any randomly selected month. All of June plus most of July gives you about 15 percent. It would be interesting though to see if there's any self-selection bias with those summer bday kids choosing to participate in summer swim at high rates than the general population or at significantly different rates than the kids with spring birthdays.

Emphasis on basic. You have no idea how many of those kids swim, what percentage of the summer swim cadre have June/July bdays, and whether or not they disproportionately win events or swim faster. You are wayyyy overthinking and yet, under thinking this. When your spring bday kid is a senior and the non-redshirts don’t come back to swim their last eligible year, they’ll have an “advantage” at that point, just relax.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have a summer birthday boy and don’t redshirt, you’re silly. It’s not just about athletics either, it’s about sending a 17 year old boy off to college. No thank you. But that’s for a different forum and post.

Regardless, my summer birthday kid has an august bday. He his the age he swims at all season, not older. He’s just lucky. Moving the age cut off to august or September would mean he’d age up before he reached max age. That doesn’t happen with a June 1 cutoff, for anyone. That’s why the cut off is where it is. Very few kids are swimming “old” — only those with June and July bdays. Just get over it.

No, it’s silly to hold back a child for sports. My kid is in that age situation and I cannot imagine holding him back. He will be 17 for a few weeks of college. No big deal. What’s yhe difference between a few weeks. The world does not revolve around sports and most will not play or swim in college. Mine will not.