Why don't you believe in God?

[Anonymous]

I think there is a broader context here. There have been lots of threads on religion recently, not just this one. Whatever you think of this thread, there have been plenty of recent threads that bashed both believers and non-believers.

[Anonymous]

The posters telling 13:40 to not bother coming to this thread seem to have identified a trend. There seem to be 5-6 atheists/agnostics posting here -- while all but maybe 1-2 believers continue to post. Have I missed something?

[Anonymous]

There are a lot more than 7-8 people on this thread.

If we can't discuss religion and morality, what's the point of having a discussion forum at all? It is one of the big topics in society, and it has been for thousands of years.

There are idiot posters, but a lot of people have written some very thoughtful posts. Anyone who is offended by the discussion should opt not to participate. If you feel compelled to defend your point of view even though the content frustrates you, that's your choice. But it is a choice. You can look the other way.

FWIW I have participated on both sides of the discussion. I am religious, but I also find some of the arguments for God posted here to be unscientific and unpersuasive. I don't believe in cheering for one side or the other. I believe in Aristotle's statement that the unexamined life is not worth living. Everything, including faith, should be challenged. It is the only way to make us stronger.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The posters telling 13:40 to not bother coming to this thread seem to have identified a trend. There seem to be 5-6 atheists/agnostics posting here -- while all but maybe 1-2 believers continue to post. Have I missed something?

Given the thread title, were you expected less non-believers to post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:how stupid. 19 pages of this? clearly there is no proof of God, nor is there proof of no god.

either you have faith or you do not.

Oh, you have to be kidding. The subject of religion has occupied humanity for at least the last 3,000 years. If that's not a relevant topic of discussion, I don't know what is. Surely not IHTT or "Hiding my shopping sprees from DH".

OP again, good morning! This made me laugh, which is good, because............

Blah, blah, blah.
OP, you just talk way too much about why you believe in God. But, can you make him/her/it appear in front of our eyes? Until you can produce this proof, this is why we don't believe in your God.

Yes, I would say if we've come to one conclusion on this thread "why don't you believe in God?" the answer is, "Because there's not one shred of evidence that a god exists--and if he does, he's certainly nothing like the "bible god".

Belivers like to get their panties in a twist when non-believers compare the "proof" for the existence for god with that of the Easter Bunny, or Santa Clause. But we're not trying to be disrespectful. Just pointing out that every argument that's made for the existence of gods could be made for the easter bunny. Possibly more so, since we know that bunnies as a class *do* exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:how stupid. 19 pages of this? clearly there is no proof of God, nor is there proof of no god.

either you have faith or you do not.

Oh, you have to be kidding. The subject of religion has occupied humanity for at least the last 3,000 years. If that's not a relevant topic of discussion, I don't know what is. Surely not IHTT or "Hiding my shopping sprees from DH".

OP again, good morning! This made me laugh, which is good, because............

Blah, blah, blah.
OP, you just talk way too much about why you believe in God. But, can you make him/her/it appear in front of our eyes? Until you can produce this proof, this is why we don't believe in your God.

Yes, I would say if we've come to one conclusion on this thread "why don't you believe in God?" the answer is, "Because there's not one shred of evidence that a god exists--and if he does, he's certainly nothing like the "bible god".

Belivers like to get their panties in a twist when non-believers compare the "proof" for the existence for god with that of the Easter Bunny, or Santa Clause. But we're not trying to be disrespectful. Just pointing out that every argument that's made for the existence of gods could be made for the easter bunny. Possibly more so, since we know that bunnies as a class *do* exist.

Existence = evidence of a Creator

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can have a moratorium on religion-talk on DCUM for a few weeks? There is somebody who starts a new thread to bash religion every time the latest thread dies. These threads serve absolutely no purpose, except maybe to people who hate religion and feel a need to insult believers in public places.

But it the "purpose" is for believers to explain why they believe, and for non-believers to explain why they don't believe, then we seem incapable of having adult conversations on this. So why not give it a rest?

That is unfair. The OP's on these threads are not bashers. If you don't like discussing religion because it makes you uncomfortable, then don't read the threads. It is dishonest to label every post on religion "bashing".

Two quick thoughts: to the "true believer", any post that doesn't begin with "All praise Jebus, the Unmoved Mover, Creator of Creation!" is going to elicit complaints of "religion bashing". The whole point of mainstream Christianity is to "butter up" the deity and never question anything. Of course any objective inquiry into the topic is going to generate ill-feelings.

Secondly, if you're offended by a topic, don't read it. If you think someone's a nutso conspiracy-theorist, don't respond to them. Could things be any simpler?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:how stupid. 19 pages of this? clearly there is no proof of God, nor is there proof of no god.

either you have faith or you do not.

Oh, you have to be kidding. The subject of religion has occupied humanity for at least the last 3,000 years. If that's not a relevant topic of discussion, I don't know what is. Surely not IHTT or "Hiding my shopping sprees from DH".

OP again, good morning! This made me laugh, which is good, because............

Blah, blah, blah.
OP, you just talk way too much about why you believe in God. But, can you make him/her/it appear in front of our eyes? Until you can produce this proof, this is why we don't believe in your God.

Yes, I would say if we've come to one conclusion on this thread "why don't you believe in God?" the answer is, "Because there's not one shred of evidence that a god exists--and if he does, he's certainly nothing like the "bible god".

Belivers like to get their panties in a twist when non-believers compare the "proof" for the existence for god with that of the Easter Bunny, or Santa Clause. But we're not trying to be disrespectful. Just pointing out that every argument that's made for the existence of gods could be made for the easter bunny. Possibly more so, since we know that bunnies as a class *do* exist.

Existence = evidence of a Creator

Right, but that's a fallacy, not an argument. For the millionth time, if you're going to question how existence came into existence, and plug up the blank area with "a creator", that gets you nowhere: who created the Creator.

Which of course, elicits a "No one! He's always been there!" But here you're just taking "Phenomenon A" and grafting "Incredibly Complex Phenomenon B" on top of it. Sorry, but anyone with two synapses to rub together can understand that "Phenomenon A" is more likely than "Phenomenon A *plus* Incredibly Complex Phenomenon B as well."

And if you say, "God is by definition the Uncreated Creator!" then that's fine, and we can agree on that if you like, but all you've done is rename "The Big Bang" (or what have you) "God". You still don't convey any magic powers like omniscience, omnipotence, or anything else.

Everything else is pure wishful thinking.

[Anonymous]

guess to me it just seems obvious that there is no God. A few minutes thought is all it takes. Look at all the religions with their very different takes on God/gods. Aztecs ripping the hearts out of babies to placate the rain god etc. They are primitive stories people come up with to explain the world. I see no reason why the Christian God, with his creating Jesus through a miraculous virgin birth etc. is in any way to be preferred to Zeus or Thor or whoever. Why should one set of stories be more true than another? Now, maybe one of them is right and the others wrong? Either way, all the "religious" people are rejecting a whole lot more religions than they are accepting!

Haven't read all 20+ pages, but wanted to respond to this comment.

I think this is a rather narrow view of God. This assumes that anyone who believes in God believes in one specific God and that God must be different from all the other Gods. There are many religions who are quite intolerant of other Gods (Christianity is one of them!) but I personally believe that God is complex enough to manifest in many different ways. I think he WANTS to be known to as many people as possible, and what appeals to one culture may not work for another. Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy.

[Anonymous]

Either God exists (theists are right)

Or God does not exist (atheists are right).

Either someone started everything from nothing (theists)

Or nothing started everything from nothing (atheists).

If no human being is capable of describing the moment before the Big Bang, because no human being was there to witness, then that evidence is unavailable to prove whether theists or atheists are right.

But humans have reason, and reason states there was a moment of creation, because creation exists. Theists say God as Creator is reasonable. Atheists say God is impossible.

"People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive."
--Blaise Pascal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

guess to me it just seems obvious that there is no God. A few minutes thought is all it takes. Look at all the religions with their very different takes on God/gods. Aztecs ripping the hearts out of babies to placate the rain god etc. They are primitive stories people come up with to explain the world. I see no reason why the Christian God, with his creating Jesus through a miraculous virgin birth etc. is in any way to be preferred to Zeus or Thor or whoever. Why should one set of stories be more true than another? Now, maybe one of them is right and the others wrong? Either way, all the "religious" people are rejecting a whole lot more religions than they are accepting!

Haven't read all 20+ pages, but wanted to respond to this comment.

I think this is a rather narrow view of God. This assumes that anyone who believes in God believes in one specific God and that God must be different from all the other Gods. There are many religions who are quite intolerant of other Gods (Christianity is one of them!) but I personally believe that God is complex enough to manifest in many different ways. I think he WANTS to be known to as many people as possible, and what appeals to one culture may not work for another. Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy.

And Quetzalcoatl? Meanwhile, the same jesus guy is all about ripping out babies' hearts in another place? Or training berserkers to rape nuns and monks? The same guy encouraging women to become nuns, and encouraging vikings to go rape them? Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy. If so, he has a serious case of multiple personality disorder, and needs medication, not worship.

[Anonymous]

Either someone started everything from nothing (theists)

Or nothing started everything from nothing (atheists).

Not quite. Once again because it looks like you missed it:

The theist's position is that "Nothing started something from nothing (which is essentially the atheist's position), then that Someone started everything from nothing (theists)."

Atheists win by Occam's Razor. At least if theists want to keep the fig-leaf of rationality. Probably wiser to admit "it makes no sense, but it's what I believe" which is what others have said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
guess to me it just seems obvious that there is no God. A few minutes thought is all it takes. Look at all the religions with their very different takes on God/gods. Aztecs ripping the hearts out of babies to placate the rain god etc. They are primitive stories people come up with to explain the world. I see no reason why the Christian God, with his creating Jesus through a miraculous virgin birth etc. is in any way to be preferred to Zeus or Thor or whoever. Why should one set of stories be more true than another? Now, maybe one of them is right and the others wrong? Either way, all the "religious" people are rejecting a whole lot more religions than they are accepting!

Haven't read all 20+ pages, but wanted to respond to this comment.

I think this is a rather narrow view of God. This assumes that anyone who believes in God believes in one specific God and that God must be different from all the other Gods. There are many religions who are quite intolerant of other Gods (Christianity is one of them!) but I personally believe that God is complex enough to manifest in many different ways. I think he WANTS to be known to as many people as possible, and what appeals to one culture may not work for another. Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy.


And Quetzalcoatl? Meanwhile, the same jesus guy is all about ripping out babies' hearts in another place? Or training berserkers to rape nuns and monks? The same guy encouraging women to become nuns, and encouraging vikings to go rape them? Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy. If so, he has a serious case of multiple personality disorder, and needs medication, not worship.

Aah, but you are mixing religion and politics here. It is one thing to believe in a God, and quite another thing to use God to justify conquests. You can believe in God without believing that God told us to invade Iraq. It is quite possible there is just one God, but people are both using him as an excuse for fighting over Israel. God probably has nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Either someone started everything from nothing (theists)

Or nothing started everything from nothing (atheists).

Not quite. Once again because it looks like you missed it:

The theist's position is that "Nothing started something from nothing (which is essentially the atheist's position), then that Someone started everything from nothing (theists)."

Atheists win by Occam's Razor. At least if theists want to keep the fig-leaf of rationality. Probably wiser to admit "it makes no sense, but it's what I believe" which is what others have said.

I'm not PP, but I think I missed it, too. Atheists think no one started everything, where as theists think someone started everything, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
guess to me it just seems obvious that there is no God. A few minutes thought is all it takes. Look at all the religions with their very different takes on God/gods. Aztecs ripping the hearts out of babies to placate the rain god etc. They are primitive stories people come up with to explain the world. I see no reason why the Christian God, with his creating Jesus through a miraculous virgin birth etc. is in any way to be preferred to Zeus or Thor or whoever. Why should one set of stories be more true than another? Now, maybe one of them is right and the others wrong? Either way, all the "religious" people are rejecting a whole lot more religions than they are accepting!

Haven't read all 20+ pages, but wanted to respond to this comment.

I think this is a rather narrow view of God. This assumes that anyone who believes in God believes in one specific God and that God must be different from all the other Gods. There are many religions who are quite intolerant of other Gods (Christianity is one of them!) but I personally believe that God is complex enough to manifest in many different ways. I think he WANTS to be known to as many people as possible, and what appeals to one culture may not work for another. Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy.


And Quetzalcoatl? Meanwhile, the same jesus guy is all about ripping out babies' hearts in another place? Or training berserkers to rape nuns and monks? The same guy encouraging women to become nuns, and encouraging vikings to go rape them? Maybe Thor and Zeus and Jesus and Allah are all the same guy. If so, he has a serious case of multiple personality disorder, and needs medication, not worship.

Aah, but you are mixing religion and politics here. It is one thing to believe in a God, and quite another thing to use God to justify conquests. You can believe in God without believing that God told us to invade Iraq. It is quite possible there is just one God, but people are both using him as an excuse for fighting over Israel. God probably has nothing to do with it.

Or, as someone pointed out up-thread: all of these paradoxes can be resolved if we simply operate from the premise that "God is evil."

Sure, you say, but why are there puppies and rainbows then? God moves in mysterious ways, his horrors to perform.