Millennial women are saying no thanks to parenthood

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

+1. After they left parents of young kids, and kids generally, twisting in the wind, I do. not. care. about anyone out of obligation.

Literally get out of my way or I will move you.

Where are you going?

Is English your 2nd language?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

For this to be true, the increase in childlessness is driven by a decrease in the perceived “need” to have children. But how many of us parents or would-be parents on DCUM would put ourselves in the category of pursuing parenthood out of need vs. because we knew we would “love to have kids”? I think basically zero. So if basically none of the parents on DCUM had kids out of need, then it doesn’t seem that PP’s theory does much to explain millennials’ behavior vs. Gen X or boomers.

If you loved being a kid, I think it’s natural to want to have kids and to look forward to the raising-kids life stage. Maybe there’s data to show that millennials didn’t love being kids themselves as much as previous generations. Could that be because amongst millennials there are more children of divorce, children of addiction, children with absent fathers, children of bankruptcy, fewer free-range children, etc.? That’s my theory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

For this to be true, the increase in childlessness is driven by a decrease in the perceived “need” to have children. But how many of us parents or would-be parents on DCUM would put ourselves in the category of pursuing parenthood out of need vs. because we knew we would “love to have kids”? I think basically zero. So if basically none of the parents on DCUM had kids out of need, then it doesn’t seem that PP’s theory does much to explain millennials’ behavior vs. Gen X or boomers.

If you loved being a kid, I think it’s natural to want to have kids and to look forward to the raising-kids life stage. Maybe there’s data to show that millennials didn’t love being kids themselves as much as previous generations. Could that be because amongst millennials there are more children of divorce, children of addiction, children with absent fathers, children of bankruptcy, fewer free-range children, etc.? That’s my theory.

In my experience it's because millennials have siblings/close friends that have died from gun violence, cancer or other childhood illnesses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

For this to be true, the increase in childlessness is driven by a decrease in the perceived “need” to have children. But how many of us parents or would-be parents on DCUM would put ourselves in the category of pursuing parenthood out of need vs. because we knew we would “love to have kids”? I think basically zero. So if basically none of the parents on DCUM had kids out of need, then it doesn’t seem that PP’s theory does much to explain millennials’ behavior vs. Gen X or boomers.

If you loved being a kid, I think it’s natural to want to have kids and to look forward to the raising-kids life stage. Maybe there’s data to show that millennials didn’t love being kids themselves as much as previous generations. Could that be because amongst millennials there are more children of divorce, children of addiction, children with absent fathers, children of bankruptcy, fewer free-range children, etc.? That’s my theory.

In my experience it's because millennials have siblings/close friends that have died from gun violence, cancer or other childhood illnesses.

This is a really unusual experience…I’m a millennial and don’t know anyone who died of gun violence or a childhood illness. If you ask any of my friends they *might* be able to name one person. I grew up a middle class white kid. Almost everyone I know had a great childhood and wants kids. I know two or three child free by choice couples and it has nothing to do with their childhood, they just don’t want to sacrifice their lifestyle and would rather be aunts and uncles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

They are upset because they realize they just wasted their time talking to an idiot. If you think your career is more of an accomplishment than raising human beings, then you are delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

They are upset because they realize they just wasted their time talking to an idiot. If you think your career is more of an accomplishment than raising human beings, then you are delusional.

I never said my career was more of an accomplishment. Very few people have a major accomplishment in work or home. It's just life. Your child is not the 2nd coming and my computer programming paid the bills but really did not change anybody's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

This is hysterical. People have never had better living conditions. This is the safest and most prosperous time ever on earth.

Exactly right. By any objective measure, we have it better than any human before us. The only thing that has changed is our expectation of pleasure/comfort has changed, gone drastically up and making our very comfortable lives feel miserable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Yes I agree not always kids. But you have a sister because your parents decided to have a decent sized family. And I agree kids are not that helpful but that is because that is the message they have received (the whole point of this thread): look out for themselves first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

They are upset because they realize they just wasted their time talking to an idiot. If you think your career is more of an accomplishment than raising human beings, then you are delusional.

I never said my career was more of an accomplishment. Very few people have a major accomplishment in work or home. It's just life. Your child is not the 2nd coming and my computer programming paid the bills but really did not change anybody's life.

This is subjective then. You dont think you have many accomplishments while others can think they accomplish something great every day. Different personalities. Point is, as far as meaningfulness goes, raising a human being is pretty up there. I have advanced degree and a job but I think they pale in comparison to the difficulty and satisfaction of raising kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How many millennial men are willing & able to (a) be the sole provider so their wives can SAHM, or (b) take on 50% of house and kid responsibilities so their wives can also have a career? I guess option (c) is the men can SAHD but very few women are actually interested in that setup. There is your answer.

Yeah it’s this.

I wonder if, in the future, we’ll see two tracks. If you want kids as a woman, you’ll marry a high earner and SAHM. If you are ambivalent, you’ll keep working and be DINKS.

The happiest moms I know (including myself in here) are SAHMs to 3-4 kids and are married to high earning, golden retriever type husbands who adore their wives and genuinely seem to believe aphorisms like “happy wife, happy life.” They have money to hire help, local family, and time to devote to hobbies and friends. The women all have college degrees, some have advanced degrees, and worked for at least 8-10 years before kids. Most worked until the birth of their second kid. So they understand what it’s like to do both and voluntarily opted out because they could.

Money in this scenario = flexibility and choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Those women in their 50s/60s have raised families, which might make them more likely to value caregiving and community when the nest is empty. I wonder if women who have only ever had to look out for themselves would be as reliable for emotional support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Yes I agree not always kids. But you have a sister because your parents decided to have a decent sized family. And I agree kids are not that helpful but that is because that is the message they have received (the whole point of this thread): look out for themselves first.

I don't have a sister, I have 5 brothers and they are useless, and so are some people's sisters.

Kids are not helpful because they saw their parents best years ruined by being chained to home taking care of an irresponsible parent who did not play for retirement. Both the parents and the kids don't want this. Make your own life... it's no different than birthing children to work the farm, you can't birth children to care for you. Plan better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Those women in their 50s/60s have raised families, which might make them more likely to value caregiving and community when the nest is empty. I wonder if women who have only ever had to look out for themselves would be as reliable for emotional support.

My friends with no children are equally as helpful. I find the most useless are SAHM's who are like, just because I don't work doesn't mean I'm gonna help when you are home/need help/etc. My working friends with and without kids are the most helpful.

Then when SAHM's need help, I've found they lean mostly on their H, who is generally not helpful and they wonder why they are not getting help, but they have spent less time building the community.