Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Prediction:

When universities get rid of SATs and all standards because they cannot achieve desired racial quotas, Americans universities and education go down the toilet for rigor, international students avoid toxic US universities at all costs, US universities dramatically plummet in international rankings, and China eats US' lunch in innovation and STEM training because they only care about academic excellence, not any of this diversity fluff and lowering the bar in order to achieve racial quotas.

Sure, tons of foreign students are banging down the doors of Chinese Universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

And when that happens and there are no people of certain races admitted to elite colleges, then they sue, and win, (because that is absolute proof of systemic societal racism) what happens then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

Last year, any state law that banned abortion after 15 weeks was illegal and unenforceable. Today those laws are legal and enforceable. That is making law

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Prediction:

When universities get rid of SATs and all standards because they cannot achieve desired racial quotas, Americans universities and education go down the toilet for rigor, international students avoid toxic US universities at all costs, US universities dramatically plummet in international rankings, and China eats US' lunch in innovation and STEM training because they only care about academic excellence, not any of this diversity fluff and lowering the bar in order to achieve racial quotas.

Sure, tons of foreign students are banging down the doors of Chinese Universities.

Actually, they are. You are woefully unaware of how good a schools like Tsinghua, Peking U, U of HK are in STEM. Typical ignornant American thinking they're exceptional. Students will go to other Universities like ETH, University of Tokyo, NUS, etc. etc. when US standards get flushed down the toilet due to diversity at all costs and the erosion of any standards. In fact, US is rapidly falling in international rankings for engineering:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Prediction:

When universities get rid of SATs and all standards because they cannot achieve desired racial quotas, Americans universities and education go down the toilet for rigor, international students avoid toxic US universities at all costs, US universities dramatically plummet in international rankings, and China eats US' lunch in innovation and STEM training because they only care about academic excellence, not any of this diversity fluff and lowering the bar in order to achieve racial quotas.

Sure, tons of foreign students are banging down the doors of Chinese Universities.

All of the major empires eventually collapsed. 
Relatively recent superpowers like Spain, France, UK  have sort of sunsetted.
It can happen to the US sooner than you think if we keep going backward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Prediction:

When universities get rid of SATs and all standards because they cannot achieve desired racial quotas, Americans universities and education go down the toilet for rigor, international students avoid toxic US universities at all costs, US universities dramatically plummet in international rankings, and China eats US' lunch in innovation and STEM training because they only care about academic excellence, not any of this diversity fluff and lowering the bar in order to achieve racial quotas.

Sure, tons of foreign students are banging down the doors of Chinese Universities.

All of the major empires eventually collapsed. 
Relatively recent superpowers like Spain, France, UK  have sort of sunsetted.
It can happen to the US sooner than you think if we keep going backward.

Probably, but children of privilege are not going to go a country where they are subject to random arrest at the whims of an an autocratic government. Schools like Oxford and Cambridge, both located in an empire that has long since faded, will continue to draw those with means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

And when that happens and there are no people of certain races admitted to elite colleges, then they sue, and win, (because that is absolute proof of systemic societal racism) what happens then?

No it's not absolute proof of systemic societal racism.

NBA has only 0.4% of Asians.
Is that absolute proof of systemic societal racism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

If the thing that they offer is diversity, then the higher scoring students are being denied admission based on race. If this case goes the way people expect it to, those scores will either turn into acceptances next year or very expensive settlements

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

They don't have to say, but the numbers clearly show that their actual actions are stating otherwise. Asians have to score higher on the MCAT and have a significantly higher GPA. It is clearly based on their race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

If the thing that they offer is diversity, then the higher scoring students are being denied admission based on race. If this case goes the way people expect it to, those scores will either turn into acceptances next year or very expensive settlements

Agree with you on what the Supreme Court will do, but not on the consequences. All these schools will go test optional (conveniently many are already there with Covid) and then the disparate racial standards will never be so clear and quantifiable again. No more lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

Last year, any state law that banned abortion after 15 weeks was illegal and unenforceable. Today those laws are legal and enforceable. That is making law

No the states made the laws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

If the thing that they offer is diversity, then the higher scoring students are being denied admission based on race. If this case goes the way people expect it to, those scores will either turn into acceptances next year or very expensive settlements

AlMost every elite college is test optional so scores can be considered but they are not required and having the highest score on a standardized test is not how admitted classes are formed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Explain why Asians have to score higher than everyone else on the MCAT and have to have significantly higher GPAs than certain groups in order to get into medical school:



It is literally using race to hold people to different standards. Which is racism.

There is not one school in the country that is saying Asians must have higher scores and GPAs in order to be admitted. Because that WOULD be racism. You're just making that assumption based on others with lower numbers being admitted. But the reason they're admitted is because they offer something else the college values, not because they're not Asian.

If the thing that they offer is diversity, then the higher scoring students are being denied admission based on race. If this case goes the way people expect it to, those scores will either turn into acceptances next year or very expensive settlements

AlMost every elite college is test optional so scores can be considered but they are not required and having the highest score on a standardized test is not how admitted classes are formed.

MIT went back to SATs because they realized how stupid having no standards is, and the incoming class that didn't take SATs were terrible. Kinda hard to tell how students will do when 100% of them come in with overly bloated grades due to grade inflation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

Last year, any state law that banned abortion after 15 weeks was illegal and unenforceable. Today those laws are legal and enforceable. That is making law

No the states made the laws.

They made unconstitutional laws that were struck down by the supreme court for almost 50 years. Then they changed the justices and the interpretation of the constitution changed.

Law is not an absolute...it is dependent on those 9 very powerful individuals who happen to contain an anti women's rights majority at this moment. When we can get some ei.en respecting individuals back on the court....Roe can stand again as can other precedents being disrespected by this court..