Gen Xers - Do you find Taylor Swift’s music bland?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll give you all an example: we are never getting back together.

It’s credited to Taylor Swift, Max Martin, and Shellback. Max Martin wrote the boy band songs in the 90s. These guys aren’t just producers; they’re songwriter-producers.

If you look at the personnel breakdown, you’ll see Taylor did the vocals, but those 2 guys did everything else.

She does not write her guitar parts, with very very few exceptions. She does essentially none of the arranging.

This isn’t unique to her. This is how most pop is done.

NP. Agree that it's not unique to Taylor Swift--or even to pop music--but I disagree to the extent that it's somehow a knock against her. Stevie Nicks has said numerous times over the years that she would write the lyrics to her songs and rely on Lindsay Buckingham or the whole band to add the music. She occasionally wrote parts of the melodies but has admitted she has no knowledge of chords or what to do beyond coming up with a few notes that she'd pluck out on a piano or guitar. That doesn't detract from her being known as a prolific songwriter or from all of the Fleetwood Mac and solo hits she is credited for.

I am middle-of-the-road on Taylor Swift and her music, but I don't think these arguments about her songwriting process or limitations are a legit criticism. Musicians who truly do it all are rare (RIP Prince!).

There’s a difference. Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham were in the band together. They were artistic collaborators.

I don’t see Taylor Swift acknowledging Max Martin or Shellback or Aaron Dessner as being artistic collaborators.

She claims to write her songs by herself.

Are you joking?

Then why do the Swifties act like she’s the next coming of Paul McCartney?

We don't want her to be the 'next Paul McCartney. Many of his solo songs are really bad...way worse than Taylor! Bang bang Maxwell silver hammer? Yikes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

So she gets help. Big whoop. Still made 2 billion on the Eras tour. And you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ll give you all an example: we are never getting back together.

It’s credited to Taylor Swift, Max Martin, and Shellback. Max Martin wrote the boy band songs in the 90s. These guys aren’t just producers; they’re songwriter-producers.

If you look at the personnel breakdown, you’ll see Taylor did the vocals, but those 2 guys did everything else.

She does not write her guitar parts, with very very few exceptions. She does essentially none of the arranging.

This isn’t unique to her. This is how most pop is done.

NP. Agree that it's not unique to Taylor Swift--or even to pop music--but I disagree to the extent that it's somehow a knock against her. Stevie Nicks has said numerous times over the years that she would write the lyrics to her songs and rely on Lindsay Buckingham or the whole band to add the music. She occasionally wrote parts of the melodies but has admitted she has no knowledge of chords or what to do beyond coming up with a few notes that she'd pluck out on a piano or guitar. That doesn't detract from her being known as a prolific songwriter or from all of the Fleetwood Mac and solo hits she is credited for.

I am middle-of-the-road on Taylor Swift and her music, but I don't think these arguments about her songwriting process or limitations are a legit criticism. Musicians who truly do it all are rare (RIP Prince!).

There’s a difference. Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham were in the band together. They were artistic collaborators.

I don’t see Taylor Swift acknowledging Max Martin or Shellback or Aaron Dessner as being artistic collaborators.

She claims to write her songs by herself.

Are you joking?

Then why do the Swifties act like she’s the next coming of Paul McCartney?

We don't want her to be the 'next Paul McCartney. Many of his solo songs are really bad...way worse than Taylor! Bang bang Maxwell silver hammer? Yikes!

That’s not a solo song. Methinks you know very little about McCartney.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

So she gets help. Big whoop. Still made 2 billion on the Eras tour. And you?

Seems to me it’s a big whoop, considering you’re all calling me sexist for pointing it out — which I only did to correct posters who said she writes her songs on her own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh and for the love of God don’t make this a gender thing.

I’m a female musician. A female drummer and rock guitarist at that.

Trust me when I tell you I would never criticize someone simply for being a female musician.

And you are? Why should anyone believe you? Women can hate other women.

Don’t believe me. Watch this, from a producer and music industry expert: https://youtu.be/DxrwjJHXPlQ?si=k5HjT1tuek715aJN

Start at 2:30 for his discussion of what I’m talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

It's funny you think women cannot be sexist toward other women.

It's totally fine if you don't like her music, whatever. But you are completely minimizing her music and her success.

Stating that her producers write much of her music is not minimizing her. It’s stating a fact that you all claim she acknowledges all the time.

So what’s the problem?

Some people--maybe you?--seem to have a problem with her being referred to as a songwriter. First it was that she can't be considered a songwriter--even if she writes her own songs--because she gets a lot of help and doesn't credit anyone else on her songs. That changed too: well, she does give credit to others but she acts like she does it all herself. And now we've reached: well, maybe she writes the lyrics, but not the MUSIC, so she's not a songwriter or at least not AS MUCH of one.

So you can see how these argument sound specious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

So she gets help. Big whoop. Still made 2 billion on the Eras tour. And you?

Seems to me it’s a big whoop, considering you’re all calling me sexist for pointing it out — which I only did to correct posters who said she writes her songs on her own.

That's not what people were saying. Try to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her songs do not all sound the same, people. She has more variety in her music than most other artists.

But, they do to me. Absolutely she has this pattern where there are some chords and she talk sings a line and then holds out the note and the end and will sometimes glide the note up at the end of the line. Or whisper sing at three lines in the same patterns and at ‘the same volume and bust out withI want to kill you.

It is to the point where I feel honestly browbeaten for having this opinion, but they sound the same to me.

Can you give examples of songs that you think follow this pattern and sound alike?

Can you read music? If so, google the sheet music for Fortnite. OMG she uses the same note for almost 2 measures. The Same note over and over. The repetition within her song continues in the same way.

Then google another singer (an Adele, the Beatles) and notice how the notes change within and across measures. Hers don’t. She sort of hangs onto a note until she has finished all the words in her phrase and then will move to a new note.

My only music training I have is at crap violin in 4th grade, but I know the notes are supposed to rise and lower on the sheet music. More than just the lyrics need to change to make a good melody. She doesn’t do that and so it bores me. Where is the song?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

It's funny you think women cannot be sexist toward other women.

It's totally fine if you don't like her music, whatever. But you are completely minimizing her music and her success.

Stating that her producers write much of her music is not minimizing her. It’s stating a fact that you all claim she acknowledges all the time.

So what’s the problem?

Some people--maybe you?--seem to have a problem with her being referred to as a songwriter. First it was that she can't be considered a songwriter--even if she writes her own songs--because she gets a lot of help and doesn't credit anyone else on her songs. That changed too: well, she does give credit to others but she acts like she does it all herself. And now we've reached: well, maybe she writes the lyrics, but not the MUSIC, so she's not a songwriter or at least not AS MUCH of one.

So you can see how these argument sound specious.

I have no problem with her being a songwriter.

I’m simply pointing out that they are too, because they write all the instrumental parts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

Yes. They were a songwriting duo.

If Taylor openly called herself part of a Swift/Martin/Shellback songwriting trio I’d have no problem with it.

Is that happening?

[Anonymous]

We grew up in the heavy metal and punk era; of course we find it bland. But I like some of her stuff in the same way I like smooth jazz and ballads from the 70s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We grew up in the heavy metal and punk era; of course we find it bland. But I like some of her stuff in the same way I like smooth jazz and ballads from the 70s.

Some 70s ballads I totally agree are as bland as her music.

But Bridge Over Troubled Water is a goddamn masterpiece. The chord progression in that song is genius.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

Yes. They were a songwriting duo.

If Taylor openly called herself part of a Swift/Martin/Shellback songwriting trio I’d have no problem with it.

Is that happening?

I also think part of the issue here is that it's unclear how much Taylor is actually sitting down in studio and collaborating with her songwriting partners. The allegation is that she is out touring and being sent essentially backing tracks that she will then lay lyrics and melody over. Yes that is a form of collaboration. But it's very unidirectional and therefore distinct from other very fruitful collaborations like Elton John and Taupin or the Beatles where there was greater give and take and they were spending significant amounts of time just sitting in studio playing snippets of melodies or piano or guitar riffs or toying around with lyrical phrase and then building off one another.

If you have not seen the Beatles documentary showing them writing and recording their final album I highly recommend it. It's not even the best example of their collaboration because at this point the band was essentially already breaking apart with side projects and interests. Yet even with a lot of turmoil over how much longer the collaboration would hold together they fall easily back into their collaborative rhythms and it is really fascinating to watch them toy with what are now incredibly famous songs and work very productively together towards building those songs from their component parts often starting with a small bit of writing or inspiration one of them brings to the table and then all four of them working together to build it into a song. Although Paul and John drive the collaboration process George and Ringo (but especially George) are full partners and providing generative ideas and energy. They all bring something so different to the table and it's their difference that seem to make those songs great. They make each other better.

In the kind of unidirectional collaboration Taylor uses it's less generative. I also suspect that one reason the backing tracks she is using are so often very simple is that it makes it easier for her -- she is a proficient musician but not much more. She needs tracks that she can easily reproduce on the piano or guitar as she writes lyrics to them. And she's not riffing on these tracks or changing them. Once she has the lyrics her producers are then toying with her melody and adding some complexity to the songs but because of the lack of back and forth it's not moving into that level of generation you see with the Beatles. She is making no substantive changes to the backing track provided. The producers are largely leaving the lyrics to her and only building melody and arrangement around them. I think this is why her music often sounds so flat and unsurprising even if her lyrics sometimes have creative twists and turns. Because she's essentially writing a poem to go with a song someone else is writing. But they aren't working together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

Yes. They were a songwriting duo.

If Taylor openly called herself part of a Swift/Martin/Shellback songwriting trio I’d have no problem with it.

Is that happening?

I also think part of the issue here is that it's unclear how much Taylor is actually sitting down in studio and collaborating with her songwriting partners. The allegation is that she is out touring and being sent essentially backing tracks that she will then lay lyrics and melody over. Yes that is a form of collaboration. But it's very unidirectional and therefore distinct from other very fruitful collaborations like Elton John and Taupin or the Beatles where there was greater give and take and they were spending significant amounts of time just sitting in studio playing snippets of melodies or piano or guitar riffs or toying around with lyrical phrase and then building off one another.

If you have not seen the Beatles documentary showing them writing and recording their final album I highly recommend it. It's not even the best example of their collaboration because at this point the band was essentially already breaking apart with side projects and interests. Yet even with a lot of turmoil over how much longer the collaboration would hold together they fall easily back into their collaborative rhythms and it is really fascinating to watch them toy with what are now incredibly famous songs and work very productively together towards building those songs from their component parts often starting with a small bit of writing or inspiration one of them brings to the table and then all four of them working together to build it into a song. Although Paul and John drive the collaboration process George and Ringo (but especially George) are full partners and providing generative ideas and energy. They all bring something so different to the table and it's their difference that seem to make those songs great. They make each other better.

In the kind of unidirectional collaboration Taylor uses it's less generative. I also suspect that one reason the backing tracks she is using are so often very simple is that it makes it easier for her -- she is a proficient musician but not much more. She needs tracks that she can easily reproduce on the piano or guitar as she writes lyrics to them. And she's not riffing on these tracks or changing them. Once she has the lyrics her producers are then toying with her melody and adding some complexity to the songs but because of the lack of back and forth it's not moving into that level of generation you see with the Beatles. She is making no substantive changes to the backing track provided. The producers are largely leaving the lyrics to her and only building melody and arrangement around them. I think this is why her music often sounds so flat and unsurprising even if her lyrics sometimes have creative twists and turns. Because she's essentially writing a poem to go with a song someone else is writing. But they aren't working together.

This is exactly right.

And my issue with comparing this to songwriting duos is not only the active collaboration they have/had but the fact that they all openly acknowledged and celebrated the whole thing.

Taylor says she works with producers, but I’m not aware of her acknowledging that they write the music to back up her lyrics.