Gen Xers - Do you find Taylor Swift’s music bland?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Her songs do not all sound the same, people. She has more variety in her music than most other artists.

I wouldn't say Taylor Swift has more variety than most. That's an exaggeration.

Hmm. Maybe the problem with the lack of variety is the whole pop scene. We're in a period of young female singers with talky/yell-y singing and synth backbeats. Or a lower, talky confessional sound.

And the whispery voices! So much tremblng air.

Taylor wouldn't be knocked for lack of variety if more artists were bringing strong offerings to the table. In that world, Taylor could stay in her lane writing lyrics about First Love for the next 20 years. No one would care. But we need some palette cleansers!

So maybe we can catch a break on the male pop scene? It's a WASTELAND there. Even less interest.

Not a ton of artists have a range of country/pop/folk albums and songs. And again, the (willful, IMO) ignorance about her range of songwriting themes abound, although love and lost love is probably the biggest inspiration for most songwriting in general.

As a fan of Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline, and Merle Haggard, I just wouldn't call anything that Taylor Swift has ever done as "country." Though I'd say the same about Jelly Roll.

You're identifying “country” as 4 artists born on average about 100 years ago. The fanbase has changed.

Her first album was considered country and she won multiple Country Music Awards. About four years into her career, her mother went onstage at a country music awards show and thanked the country music community for "taking care" of Taylor. It was a goodbye message to country music and the beginning of her entry to pop.

Taylor came up in country at a time when it had greatly distanced itself from it's origins -- most of the top country acts at the time had very little twang and eschewed a lot of the traditional country instrumentations. It was a smoother and more mainstream version of country music. What made it country was the storytelling aspect of the music and lyrics and some references to classic country music in the melodies and compositions. And the fact that it came out of Nashville. A song like Romeo & Juliet is pretty quintessentially country of that era even though to my ear it doesn't sound like "country music." It's what a lot of artists out of Nashville were doing at the time.

That's part of what helped Taylor make the leap to mainstream pop so easily -- she was already essentially making pop music and she decided to just liberate herself of the requirements of the Nashville market (including especially in how she marketed her persona -- the country music scene can be incredibly limiting for women).

In 2024 that first album still sounds country to me but I think the scene has shifted enough that I'm not sure that's where she'd be categorized now. I think she might have ended up in indie rock which is a really expansive category that can include acts like Waxahatchee as well as people like Father John misty or Lana Del Ray. It's just super broad. But there is a lot of classical country and bluegrass influence in a lot of it. The reason I think she'd wind up there now is because of her emphasis on lyrics which make her unusual in the pop world (most major pop acts like Charlie XCX or Dua Lipa have much more simplistic lyrics and the focus is on hooks and dance beats). It's actually sort of anomalous that Taylor wound up a pop act and I think the result of (1) her look which had pop producers excited because she was so appealing to key pop demographics and (2) her and her family's ambitions which I think would have viewed a more indie rock type of career as too low level and not lucrative enough. Indie rock bands generally make most of their money off of touring as opposed to album sales unless they hit a level of fame where they can license their music which can be lucrative. Taylor of course now makes a ton of music off touring but early in her career her success was based off of studio albums and especially because of her age an inexperience on stage that was pretty essential for her -- it allowed her to cultivate a stage presence more slowly while relying on her songwriting and studio ability. And take a ton of music and dance lessons (she's never been a virtuosic musician or singer and she's well known to be a mediocre dancer). Turning Taylor Swift into Taylor Swift took a lot of work and she wasn't like some of these Disney pop grads who are ready to hop on an arena stage and wow a crowd at age 15 because she did not have that kind of performance ability at that age. She was still sitting down at the piano or with her guitar and tenderly singing songs from her journal at that age (even if she was writing at a high level and selling a ton of music for someone that age -- her songwriting skill was virtuosic but that doesn't mean she was performance ready).

I agree with most of what you said, except about her songwriting skills.

She isn’t a virtuoso at all at songwriting, and the evidence of that is that she very rarely writes her melodies or instrumentation.

She does producer-led music. Her producer—whether it’s Jack Antonoff, Max Martin, or Aaron Dessner—sends her backing tracks with the instrumentation and sometimes the melody already done. She adds lyrics.

That’s why she has so many songwriting credits on her songs. It’s also why she’s able to tour and make albums almost at the same time. Other people do most of the work.

Rick Beato (a producer and expert on the music industry) discusses this. The video about it is also about the Beatles, so if you don’t care about that part, skip to 2:30.

https://youtu.be/DxrwjJHXPlQ?si=kGYdhegizkkLebHj

It’s true Dessner sent her the music for his folklore/evermore tracks and she wrote the melody and lyrics. Taylor and Dessner have spoken about their process for those albums. And she of course doesn’t play every instrument on her master recordings.

However she does write the music for many songs (alone or with a producer). There are videos and demo tracks proving this. In those cases, the producer fleshes out the music. I think the songs on TTPD are good lyrically but the production is meh.

She has very few songs that are credited to only her. Look at the breakdown in terms of who actually does most of the work.

As Rick Beato points out, her 12 number one hits have something like 20 different songwriting credits.

She has over 60 songs credited only to her, though those are primarily her early work. She started relying more on producers to polish her music when she went pop. The typical credit on her songs are Swift and one producer (or team like Martin/Shellback).

They don’t just polish her work. They write all of it, minus some lyrics and in rare cases a guitar riff.

Isn’t this true for most if not all artists? Lennon/McCartney didn’t write the drum parts of their songs but you won’t see Ringo listed as a writer.

That’s not what writing a song means. It’s about the chord progression, melody, and lyrics.

Please learn this stuff before trying to contribute.

DP. I'm not sure that intellectual property law would agree with you on this. If she is credited as a songwriter, she wrote the song and retains the IP rights. If she does as little as you say, how is she not getting sued left and right by others for songwriting credit? Perhaps the others aren't the key contributors that you seem to think they are.

Honestly, this whole argument is starting to sound like yet another example of people trying to minimize a woman's success. I don't even like TS or her music that much, but when you start parsing which part of the song she wrote or didn't write to argue how she is not a legitimate songwriter, it just reeks of sexism.

She isn’t getting sued because the other songwriters—Max Martin, Shellback, etc—are also credited.

[Anonymous]

Oh and for the love of God don’t make this a gender thing.

I’m a female musician. A female drummer and rock guitarist at that.

Trust me when I tell you I would never criticize someone simply for being a female musician.

[Anonymous]

So I just saw this thread and my gut reaction was disappointment that somebody would start a thread just to insult somebody. that's the whole purpose of this thread. What do you get out of it?

[Anonymous]

No. I find it similar to Madonna from the mid-late 80s. Catchy, pleasantly fun background music.

[Anonymous]

Generally a drum part is not considered a significant enough contribution to be songwriting.

Lennon/McCartney is not a generalizable example because they decided before they ever got a record deal to have all their songs be Lennon/McCartney regardless of who contributed what.

So Yesterday is credited to Lennon/McCartney even though John didn’t contribute a thing and only Paul played on the record.

[Anonymous]

Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

She is the first to say this. And you are certainly minimizing her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

Mmmm. So, the dudes write her music for her…yeah, that’s some pretty internalized misogyny right there….from you, and for you. Agreed. Sexism is crappy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

Mmmm. So, the dudes write her music for her…yeah, that’s some pretty internalized misogyny right there….from you, and for you. Agreed. Sexism is crappy.

Wait so which one is it: does she openly acknowledge they write much of her music or is it not true and am I sexist for saying they help her?

[Anonymous]

As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

It's funny you think women cannot be sexist toward other women.

It's totally fine if you don't like her music, whatever. But you are completely minimizing her music and her success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Born in 1977, and I did not like her music until Folklore/Evermore. But TTPD is one of the greatest breakup rock albums of our time. Seriously. You cannot credibly say that she is not a singer-songwriter - and she plays two instruments. It is what I choose to listen to every day? Is she Liz Phair? Rivers Cuomo? No. She is not jaded enough (or sarcastic enough) to be GenX - but she is talented and prolific - and so much of the criticism of her has a JDVance-esque sexism to it that cannot be ignored.

Yes she is a songwriter.

But she gets an enormous amount of help from her songwriter/producers.

And please stop calling me sexist for saying it.

I have dealt with so much crap as a female rock musician. I am not in the least bit sexist towards her.

It's funny you think women cannot be sexist toward other women.

It's totally fine if you don't like her music, whatever. But you are completely minimizing her music and her success.

Stating that her producers write much of her music is not minimizing her. It’s stating a fact that you all claim she acknowledges all the time.

So what’s the problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh and for the love of God don’t make this a gender thing.

I’m a female musician. A female drummer and rock guitarist at that.

Trust me when I tell you I would never criticize someone simply for being a female musician.

And you are? Why should anyone believe you? Women can hate other women.