Gen Xers - Do you find Taylor Swift’s music bland?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

Yes. They were a songwriting duo.

If Taylor openly called herself part of a Swift/Martin/Shellback songwriting trio I’d have no problem with it.

Is that happening?

I also think part of the issue here is that it's unclear how much Taylor is actually sitting down in studio and collaborating with her songwriting partners. The allegation is that she is out touring and being sent essentially backing tracks that she will then lay lyrics and melody over. Yes that is a form of collaboration. But it's very unidirectional and therefore distinct from other very fruitful collaborations like Elton John and Taupin or the Beatles where there was greater give and take and they were spending significant amounts of time just sitting in studio playing snippets of melodies or piano or guitar riffs or toying around with lyrical phrase and then building off one another.

If you have not seen the Beatles documentary showing them writing and recording their final album I highly recommend it. It's not even the best example of their collaboration because at this point the band was essentially already breaking apart with side projects and interests. Yet even with a lot of turmoil over how much longer the collaboration would hold together they fall easily back into their collaborative rhythms and it is really fascinating to watch them toy with what are now incredibly famous songs and work very productively together towards building those songs from their component parts often starting with a small bit of writing or inspiration one of them brings to the table and then all four of them working together to build it into a song. Although Paul and John drive the collaboration process George and Ringo (but especially George) are full partners and providing generative ideas and energy. They all bring something so different to the table and it's their difference that seem to make those songs great. They make each other better.

In the kind of unidirectional collaboration Taylor uses it's less generative. I also suspect that one reason the backing tracks she is using are so often very simple is that it makes it easier for her -- she is a proficient musician but not much more. She needs tracks that she can easily reproduce on the piano or guitar as she writes lyrics to them. And she's not riffing on these tracks or changing them. Once she has the lyrics her producers are then toying with her melody and adding some complexity to the songs but because of the lack of back and forth it's not moving into that level of generation you see with the Beatles. She is making no substantive changes to the backing track provided. The producers are largely leaving the lyrics to her and only building melody and arrangement around them. I think this is why her music often sounds so flat and unsurprising even if her lyrics sometimes have creative twists and turns. Because she's essentially writing a poem to go with a song someone else is writing. But they aren't working together.

This is exactly right.

And my issue with comparing this to songwriting duos is not only the active collaboration they have/had but the fact that they all openly acknowledged and celebrated the whole thing.

Taylor says she works with producers, but I’m not aware of her acknowledging that they write the music to back up her lyrics.

Those lyrics are written around very very few notes. As in the phrase “alcoholic til nobody noticed my new aesthetic “(minus the last syllable tic) are all on the same note. Boring no matter who wrote it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Gen Xer o find her music refreshing in that she actually writes it. I like that she is a singer/ songwriter in the vein of the musicians I heard first at home. I like that she’s business savvy, tells her story, makes no apologies for being female and doing exactly no one else’s bidding anymore. I like that she explores different genres of music for herself and has been successful in doing so.

I like that she is a good role model for my daughter by giving zero fs about what people like you think and doing it anyway, and becoming one of the most influential people while doing it.

And as you’re apparently gen X - don’t you remember your parents and grandparents lamenting the loss of all the best music while you were listening to Michael Jackson and Depeche Mode in your room? Every generation thinks the music that formed them was the best music.

She writes the lyrics. Not the music itself.

Okay, and……?! She does seem to be heavily involved in the music as well. So because she’s not doing everything by herself tip to tail, she’s somehow some kind of sham?

FFS, Elton John and Bernie Taupin did their best work in collab, but Elton still got most of the glory.

Yes. They were a songwriting duo.

If Taylor openly called herself part of a Swift/Martin/Shellback songwriting trio I’d have no problem with it.

Is that happening?

I also think part of the issue here is that it's unclear how much Taylor is actually sitting down in studio and collaborating with her songwriting partners. The allegation is that she is out touring and being sent essentially backing tracks that she will then lay lyrics and melody over. Yes that is a form of collaboration. But it's very unidirectional and therefore distinct from other very fruitful collaborations like Elton John and Taupin or the Beatles where there was greater give and take and they were spending significant amounts of time just sitting in studio playing snippets of melodies or piano or guitar riffs or toying around with lyrical phrase and then building off one another.

If you have not seen the Beatles documentary showing them writing and recording their final album I highly recommend it. It's not even the best example of their collaboration because at this point the band was essentially already breaking apart with side projects and interests. Yet even with a lot of turmoil over how much longer the collaboration would hold together they fall easily back into their collaborative rhythms and it is really fascinating to watch them toy with what are now incredibly famous songs and work very productively together towards building those songs from their component parts often starting with a small bit of writing or inspiration one of them brings to the table and then all four of them working together to build it into a song. Although Paul and John drive the collaboration process George and Ringo (but especially George) are full partners and providing generative ideas and energy. They all bring something so different to the table and it's their difference that seem to make those songs great. They make each other better.

In the kind of unidirectional collaboration Taylor uses it's less generative. I also suspect that one reason the backing tracks she is using are so often very simple is that it makes it easier for her -- she is a proficient musician but not much more. She needs tracks that she can easily reproduce on the piano or guitar as she writes lyrics to them. And she's not riffing on these tracks or changing them. Once she has the lyrics her producers are then toying with her melody and adding some complexity to the songs but because of the lack of back and forth it's not moving into that level of generation you see with the Beatles. She is making no substantive changes to the backing track provided. The producers are largely leaving the lyrics to her and only building melody and arrangement around them. I think this is why her music often sounds so flat and unsurprising even if her lyrics sometimes have creative twists and turns. Because she's essentially writing a poem to go with a song someone else is writing. But they aren't working together.

This is exactly right.

And my issue with comparing this to songwriting duos is not only the active collaboration they have/had but the fact that they all openly acknowledged and celebrated the whole thing.

Taylor says she works with producers, but I’m not aware of her acknowledging that they write the music to back up her lyrics.

Those lyrics are written around very very few notes. As in the phrase “alcoholic til nobody noticed my new aesthetic “(minus the last syllable tic) are all on the same note. Boring no matter who wrote it.

Absolutely. Compare it to the note range in a song like The Long and Winding Road or Here There and Everywhere or even a punk song like Basketcase (Billie Joe is an exceptionally good melody writer).

[Anonymous]

This melody thing is totally right and is bigger than TS:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/science/song-melodies-getting-simpler.html#:~:text=The%20study%20looked%20at%20the,University%20who%20led%20the%20research.

Bottom line for people without a NYTimes subscription:

The study, published on Thursday in the journal Scientific Reports, used mathematical models and algorithms to pinpoint three “melodic revolutions” — in 1975, 1996 and 2000 — that brought increasing simplicity to the two main components of melody: rhythm, or the pattern of sounds and silences in a piece of music, and pitch, the measure of how high or low the notes are.

The study looked at the top five Billboard songs every year from 1950 to 2023. Both rhythm and pitch became steadily less complex over that period, the study found. “Conservatively, they have both decreased by 30 percent,” said Madeline Hamilton, a graduate student at Queen Mary University who led the research.

[Anonymous]

To be clear, you all are comparing her to Elton John, the Beatles, and Billy Joel. I’d venture to say that few musicians are on their level, certainly not Taylor Swift. But apparently you think those are apt comparisons which says quite a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, you all are comparing her to Elton John, the Beatles, and Billy Joel. I’d venture to say that few musicians are on their level, certainly not Taylor Swift. But apparently you think those are apt comparisons which says quite a lot.

That is called pandering to the Swifties so you will at least stick around to listen rather than scream misogyny the second a real criticism is mentioned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, you all are comparing her to Elton John, the Beatles, and Billy Joel. I’d venture to say that few musicians are on their level, certainly not Taylor Swift. But apparently you think those are apt comparisons which says quite a lot.

That is called pandering to the Swifties so you will at least stick around to listen rather than scream misogyny the second a real criticism is mentioned.

Heh, not quite but go on believing that there isn’t any misogyny in this thread.

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by acknowledging they write the music? What does she need to do that she isn’t doing in your opinion?

Also, that long explanation up there about how she works with her collaborators is not news either. It is in her documentaries, etc. Some of her TTPD versions have the voice notes of the songs that she sent to them to work with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, you all are comparing her to Elton John, the Beatles, and Billy Joel. I’d venture to say that few musicians are on their level, certainly not Taylor Swift. But apparently you think those are apt comparisons which says quite a lot.

That is called pandering to the Swifties so you will at least stick around to listen rather than scream misogyny the second a real criticism is mentioned.

Not really. I don't really care about her being compared to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

+100
Her newer albums are anything but “bubblegum pop.” A lot of the haters just love to imagine themselves as so cool and edgy. It really is pretty funny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

So, if it is okay that we don’t listen to her new talk singing “music’ why negate our opinion by saying we ‘don’t know what we are talking about.”

Yes, we do. We don’t like it and don’t care to know more than we already do.

The doublespeak of “you don’t have to like it, but you don’t know what you are talking about” is crappy.

You continue your tromp of making fun of non fans by “cracking up at a poster” Let us have our opinions too. Without ridicule.

That my friend, is real feminism without bullying and power plays.

And yet you - or several other people here - mock anyone who says they’re a fan, as well as mock her music and everything about her. So who, exactly, are the bullies?

Frankly, when I don’t have any interest in someone, I don’t click on threads about that person to keep posting about how I have no interest in them. Get it?
DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

+100
Her newer albums are anything but “bubblegum pop.” A lot of the haters just love to imagine themselves as so cool and edgy. It really is pretty funny.

I liked the last 3-4 pages where people got into the making of music and a little music theory/history. Thanks to everyone for posting their thoughts and links. It really helped me expand my understanding of music and pop music (and Taylor’s role in it!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

So, if it is okay that we don’t listen to her new talk singing “music’ why negate our opinion by saying we ‘don’t know what we are talking about.”

Yes, we do. We don’t like it and don’t care to know more than we already do.

The doublespeak of “you don’t have to like it, but you don’t know what you are talking about” is crappy.

You continue your tromp of making fun of non fans by “cracking up at a poster” Let us have our opinions too. Without ridicule.

That my friend, is real feminism without bullying and power plays.

Omg I'm getting lectured on feminism in a thread completely dedicated to the theme of calling a woman bland? Give me a break. I do think that people don't have to like it, and I do think that some people have listened to her music enough to have an opinion on it. I also think that a LOT of the criticisms in this thread are very obviously from people who have only ever heard her radio hits. If you feel defensive from my reply then it's obvious which category you fall in.

It's extremely bizarre the extent to which people try to make not liking her music some interesting facet of their personality. There is a lot of music I don't like, or don't have enough info to have an opinion on it. The last thing I would do is make a thread about it. I'm not going to let you pretend like the existence of this thread is some form of feminism.

Exactly. You know someone has nothing else going on if they feel compelled to constantly post about someone they can’t stand. I simply scroll on by threads that don’t interest me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

So, if it is okay that we don’t listen to her new talk singing “music’ why negate our opinion by saying we ‘don’t know what we are talking about.”

Yes, we do. We don’t like it and don’t care to know more than we already do.

The doublespeak of “you don’t have to like it, but you don’t know what you are talking about” is crappy.

You continue your tromp of making fun of non fans by “cracking up at a poster” Let us have our opinions too. Without ridicule.

That my friend, is real feminism without bullying and power plays.

Omg I'm getting lectured on feminism in a thread completely dedicated to the theme of calling a woman bland? Give me a break. I do think that people don't have to like it, and I do think that some people have listened to her music enough to have an opinion on it. I also think that a LOT of the criticisms in this thread are very obviously from people who have only ever heard her radio hits. If you feel defensive from my reply then it's obvious which category you fall in.

It's extremely bizarre the extent to which people try to make not liking her music some interesting facet of their personality. There is a lot of music I don't like, or don't have enough info to have an opinion on it. The last thing I would do is make a thread about it. I'm not going to let you pretend like the existence of this thread is some form of feminism.

I don't think it's a personality trait not to like Taylor Swift. She does not appeal to me. That does not make me more interesting than other people. It's just not my preference. I also hate eating meat and hate the KC Chiefs. People are allowed to have opinions. I am not sure why someone else's preference is so offensive.

DP. Then why are you posting here at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Extremely obvious that many replies here have not listened to much of her music. I admit I love her, but even I can think of some valid criticisms and "bubblegum pop" ain't it. It sounds like many of you mostly listened to her singles circa 2012-2015 and never tuned in any further. Which is fine! You don't have to. But you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm also cracking up at the poster who said she and her daughter don't like her but "we're just counter culture I guess". Yes, not liking Taylor Swift is such an edgy and new opinion! It's so uncommon that there are threads about it in a middle aged mom forum.

So, if it is okay that we don’t listen to her new talk singing “music’ why negate our opinion by saying we ‘don’t know what we are talking about.”

Yes, we do. We don’t like it and don’t care to know more than we already do.

The doublespeak of “you don’t have to like it, but you don’t know what you are talking about” is crappy.

You continue your tromp of making fun of non fans by “cracking up at a poster” Let us have our opinions too. Without ridicule.

That my friend, is real feminism without bullying and power plays.

And yet you - or several other people here - mock anyone who says they’re a fan, as well as mock her music and everything about her. So who, exactly, are the bullies?

Frankly, when I don’t have any interest in someone, I don’t click on threads about that person to keep posting about how I have no interest in them. Get it?
DP

Wow- but the title was do gen xers find her bland? I am a gen x and I do, so….. it was nice to hear her critiqued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To be clear, you all are comparing her to Elton John, the Beatles, and Billy Joel. I’d venture to say that few musicians are on their level, certainly not Taylor Swift. But apparently you think those are apt comparisons which says quite a lot.

I'M a 57 year old male from New York and I'll go to my grave arguing that Billy Joel is schlocky garbage.