Summer swim kids swimming in “wrong” age group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids make All Stars at the top and bottom of each age group, so I don’t have a personal stake in this. But I will say that the other kids who make Divisionals and All Stars are majority “older than the age group” kids. Which means normal non-star age-appropriate kids are not getting to swim those meets.

I would be in favor of a rule change for that reason. Swim your actual age.

Every kid who competes is normal and age appropriate. They all meet the cut off.

Age appropriate like the PP said. If you are swimming 11-12, you should not be 13.

They are not the age that they are swimming. They generally are a grade ahead and they are older. Parents don't want to change it with the summer birthdays because now their child would have to swim against kids their own age and would not do as well.

Actually they are they right age. Do you not read the rules? Do you complain about this in real life? You seem really obsessed with this. It’s not going to change. They changed it a while back and it had lots of problems. Most of the history of the NVSL is based on this rule. Just a very short time period used a different rule. Do you want to wipe all the records? All the history? You don’t seem to get that no one is swimming in the wrong age group. It is all pretty clearly determined. Just because you want it to be true does not make it so.

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of people here don’t understand sports. It’s good to see and compete against great athletes. I’ll never forget being a kid when Tom Dolan was swimming for Washington Golf. Yeah, he smoked everyone and it was awesome. It was fun for the other swimmers to compete against him and it inspired all the younger kids. Your kids will not be scarred for life if they swim against a 19 and 2 week old swimmer vs an 18 and 51 week old swimmer.

[Anonymous]

I'm starting to get confused by the math and I'm a swim parent. What if we set it for August 1st, essentially after swim season ends rather than on June 1st at the beginning of the season. You swim as of the age you are on August 1st. Or maybe August 7th to be certain the date is always after All Stars. Essentially all you're now doing is instead of having a handful of kids "swimming down" all summer you have a handful of kids "swimming up". The kid who turns 11 on August 10th swims as an 11-12 all summer although still 10. Whereas right now the kid who turns 11 on June 10th swims as a 10yr old all summer.

Someone will always be the oldest and someone will always be the youngest. I see the issue. My own kid is negatively impacted by having two older boys in his AG, so yes I know it's frustrating. It's a 6wk season so the extra work for the data volunteers and coaches to be shuffling those kids around really isn't worth the effort

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids make All Stars at the top and bottom of each age group, so I don’t have a personal stake in this. But I will say that the other kids who make Divisionals and All Stars are majority “older than the age group” kids. Which means normal non-star age-appropriate kids are not getting to swim those meets.

I would be in favor of a rule change for that reason. Swim your actual age.

Every kid who competes is normal and age appropriate. They all meet the cut off.

Age appropriate like the PP said. If you are swimming 11-12, you should not be 13.

They are not the age that they are swimming. They generally are a grade ahead and they are older. Parents don't want to change it with the summer birthdays because now their child would have to swim against kids their own age and would not do as well.

They were the age as of the cutoff. They aren't a year older. It’s exactly a 24 month window. If you move the cutoff all you do is disadvantage kids with birthdays in those 6 weeks to the advantage of kids born a few weeks later.

School cutoffs are at the end of the September, so you have to move the cutoff a long way to match up age and grade.

-parent of a kid with a September birthday who would benefit from moving the cutoff to August but who still thinks it's ridiculous

[Anonymous]

the basic problem when it comes down to it is that there is a 24 month window for the 9-10, 11-12 and 13-14 groups. If the cutoff was sep 1 then you'd have "8" year olds in the 9-10 group. Right now, just like in ANY OTHER youth league you have the kids at the older end and yes, this means that a kid who has a july 1 birthday (and will turn 11 then) will be swimming the season as 9-10 and be 22 months older than a kid who turned 9 on may 1. There is no answer to fix this problem EXCEPT to make the groups smaller in age (12 month window instead of 24) but then things would take forever to run (unless you combined the heats, but then you'd have to figure out who "won" from the 9 year old sets later). And then you'll still have some kids 11 months older than others in their bracket. Taken to extremes you could have a separate category for every season or every month even with separate records/times for each but hopefully everyone thinks that is absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I skipped a grade and turned 18 in March of my freshman year of college. Why can’t I compete as an 18 year old in an 18 and under league? Not a 19 year old, or even an old 18 year old. I was a year and a half younger than most of my classmates - grew later, drove later, etc. Let me have this one thing!

So as a college sophomore you would have wanted to spend your summer participating in summer swim with a group of high school kids and younger, none of whom were your classmates? Sure

Yes. I was the coach and taught swim lessons and lifeguarded. It was my summer job. And I swam in the meets, with people who I had been teammates with for years and were on my high school team. It’s not like I was competing against the 8 year olds. The funny thing is that even though I was a Division I swimmer, I was a distance swimmer, so I wasn’t very good at the summer league sprint races. But I wasn’t trying to rack up medals, it was something done for fun.

So were you getting first place in your events at All Stars, or were high schoolers beating you? I posted that I think it’s pathetic because I would have won my events easily being a stroke and IM swimmer. That would have felt so empty considering I had access to NCAA training with certified strength and conditioning coaches at a university in a power conference. I could see it being a little different if you’re a distance swimmer at a smaller D1 program. There’s a wide range even within D1.

The example of a 17 year old high schooler placing at National is different. That high schooler is doing USA club swim training like everyone else in high school. That’s a more even playing field.

Genuine question from a non club swim parent, a person who is ranked 2nd in the country right behind a decorated Olympian is doing the training as the kids on my local high school team? And the training that person is doing is less than a D1 swimmer?

E G is effectively doing D1 training, as are a lot of kids who aren't as good.

Thank you for clarifying. Since this the case what difference does it make if an 18 yo comes back to swim the summer between freshman and sophomore year if lots of kids are training at the same level or higher in high school?

I got to see some of these elite swimmers this summer and honestly I didn’t hear any kids swimming against them complain, if anything they thought it was pretty cool. Most of the swimmers and parents stopped to watch the races. Probably something my kids will remember for years - they swam in the same meet as some of the best in the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the basic problem when it comes down to it is that there is a 24 month window for the 9-10, 11-12 and 13-14 groups. If the cutoff was sep 1 then you'd have "8" year olds in the 9-10 group. Right now, just like in ANY OTHER youth league you have the kids at the older end and yes, this means that a kid who has a july 1 birthday (and will turn 11 then) will be swimming the season as 9-10 and be 22 months older than a kid who turned 9 on may 1. There is no answer to fix this problem EXCEPT to make the groups smaller in age (12 month window instead of 24) but then things would take forever to run (unless you combined the heats, but then you'd have to figure out who "won" from the 9 year old sets later). And then you'll still have some kids 11 months older than others in their bracket. Taken to extremes you could have a separate category for every season or every month even with separate records/times for each but hopefully everyone thinks that is absurd.

No, it’s not like any other youth league. That’s bc club swim cuts it off whatever your age is the first day of a meet. It’s is not as if club swim - even ymca USA swimming- follows these rules for summer or any other time.

[Anonymous]

It is way to complicated to change it.

Also, it wouldn’t even eliminate the college swimmer issue since some have birthdays after swim season. If you want to eliminate college swimmers you could propose that rule directly but it won’t pass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the basic problem when it comes down to it is that there is a 24 month window for the 9-10, 11-12 and 13-14 groups. If the cutoff was sep 1 then you'd have "8" year olds in the 9-10 group. Right now, just like in ANY OTHER youth league you have the kids at the older end and yes, this means that a kid who has a july 1 birthday (and will turn 11 then) will be swimming the season as 9-10 and be 22 months older than a kid who turned 9 on may 1. There is no answer to fix this problem EXCEPT to make the groups smaller in age (12 month window instead of 24) but then things would take forever to run (unless you combined the heats, but then you'd have to figure out who "won" from the 9 year old sets later). And then you'll still have some kids 11 months older than others in their bracket. Taken to extremes you could have a separate category for every season or every month even with separate records/times for each but hopefully everyone thinks that is absurd.

No, it’s not like any other youth league. That’s bc club swim cuts it off whatever your age is the first day of a meet. It’s is not as if club swim - even ymca USA swimming- follows these rules for summer or any other time.

It's like every youth league that's a team sport. Summer swimming is a team sport, like baseball or soccer. Those all have age cut offs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:the basic problem when it comes down to it is that there is a 24 month window for the 9-10, 11-12 and 13-14 groups. If the cutoff was sep 1 then you'd have "8" year olds in the 9-10 group. Right now, just like in ANY OTHER youth league you have the kids at the older end and yes, this means that a kid who has a july 1 birthday (and will turn 11 then) will be swimming the season as 9-10 and be 22 months older than a kid who turned 9 on may 1. There is no answer to fix this problem EXCEPT to make the groups smaller in age (12 month window instead of 24) but then things would take forever to run (unless you combined the heats, but then you'd have to figure out who "won" from the 9 year old sets later). And then you'll still have some kids 11 months older than others in their bracket. Taken to extremes you could have a separate category for every season or every month even with separate records/times for each but hopefully everyone thinks that is absurd.

No, it’s not like any other youth league. That’s bc club swim cuts it off whatever your age is the first day of a meet. It’s is not as if club swim - even ymca USA swimming- follows these rules for summer or any other time.

But is that mostly because club swim lasts from October - May ( 8 months ) vs summer swim being 5 weeks (6 for those who make divisionals and 7 for those who make all stars?) so then you'd either have some VERY OLD kids competing (sep 1 'swimming age' by the time it gets to may) vs very YOUNG kids competing (may 1 'swimming age' and a october meet). I guess you could split the difference and have it just be january 1 or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I skipped a grade and turned 18 in March of my freshman year of college. Why can’t I compete as an 18 year old in an 18 and under league? Not a 19 year old, or even an old 18 year old. I was a year and a half younger than most of my classmates - grew later, drove later, etc. Let me have this one thing!

So as a college sophomore you would have wanted to spend your summer participating in summer swim with a group of high school kids and younger, none of whom were your classmates? Sure

Yes. I was the coach and taught swim lessons and lifeguarded. It was my summer job. And I swam in the meets, with people who I had been teammates with for years and were on my high school team. It’s not like I was competing against the 8 year olds. The funny thing is that even though I was a Division I swimmer, I was a distance swimmer, so I wasn’t very good at the summer league sprint races. But I wasn’t trying to rack up medals, it was something done for fun.

So were you getting first place in your events at All Stars, or were high schoolers beating you? I posted that I think it’s pathetic because I would have won my events easily being a stroke and IM swimmer. That would have felt so empty considering I had access to NCAA training with certified strength and conditioning coaches at a university in a power conference. I could see it being a little different if you’re a distance swimmer at a smaller D1 program. There’s a wide range even within D1.

The example of a 17 year old high schooler placing at National is different. That high schooler is doing USA club swim training like everyone else in high school. That’s a more even playing field.

I wasn’t winning. I swam random things like breaststroke that I didn’t swim in college. I think I swam 50 free and was like 4th or 5th. The others in the heat were also going to swim in college. We were the same age. My high school club swim training was basically the same as my DI college swim training, I’m not sure why people think there is a big difference. The senior groups at clubs like NCAP or RMSC are as high level training as you can get.

Also not sure why people think that regular swimmers don’t want to compete against high level swimmers. I know someone who swam against Katie Ledecky at a high school meet. Katie won easily without even trying. But the other kids there thought it was cool, and they can always say they raced Katie Ledecky. What’s wrong with that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I skipped a grade and turned 18 in March of my freshman year of college. Why can’t I compete as an 18 year old in an 18 and under league? Not a 19 year old, or even an old 18 year old. I was a year and a half younger than most of my classmates - grew later, drove later, etc. Let me have this one thing!

So as a college sophomore you would have wanted to spend your summer participating in summer swim with a group of high school kids and younger, none of whom were your classmates? Sure

Yes. I was the coach and taught swim lessons and lifeguarded. It was my summer job. And I swam in the meets, with people who I had been teammates with for years and were on my high school team. It’s not like I was competing against the 8 year olds. The funny thing is that even though I was a Division I swimmer, I was a distance swimmer, so I wasn’t very good at the summer league sprint races. But I wasn’t trying to rack up medals, it was something done for fun.

So were you getting first place in your events at All Stars, or were high schoolers beating you? I posted that I think it’s pathetic because I would have won my events easily being a stroke and IM swimmer. That would have felt so empty considering I had access to NCAA training with certified strength and conditioning coaches at a university in a power conference. I could see it being a little different if you’re a distance swimmer at a smaller D1 program. There’s a wide range even within D1.

The example of a 17 year old high schooler placing at National is different. That high schooler is doing USA club swim training like everyone else in high school. That’s a more even playing field.

I wasn’t winning. I swam random things like breaststroke that I didn’t swim in college. I think I swam 50 free and was like 4th or 5th. The others in the heat were also going to swim in college. We were the same age. My high school club swim training was basically the same as my DI college swim training, I’m not sure why people think there is a big difference. The senior groups at clubs like NCAP or RMSC are as high level training as you can get.

Also not sure why people think that regular swimmers don’t want to compete against high level swimmers. I know someone who swam against Katie Ledecky at a high school meet. Katie won easily without
even trying. But the other kids there thought it was cool, and they can always say they raced Katie Ledecky. What’s wrong with that?

A random high school meet is different from someone’s final summer swim meet after competing their entire childhood. It is in poor taste for someone who won their events (or close to it) at 17 to then come back after a year of D1 swimming and win everything again. That takes the opportunity away from an 18 year old senior who won’t be able to come back after a year of college. There’s a time to be in the spotlight and a time to let others shine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I skipped a grade and turned 18 in March of my freshman year of college. Why can’t I compete as an 18 year old in an 18 and under league? Not a 19 year old, or even an old 18 year old. I was a year and a half younger than most of my classmates - grew later, drove later, etc. Let me have this one thing!

So as a college sophomore you would have wanted to spend your summer participating in summer swim with a group of high school kids and younger, none of whom were your classmates? Sure

Yes. I was the coach and taught swim lessons and lifeguarded. It was my summer job. And I swam in the meets, with people who I had been teammates with for years and were on my high school team. It’s not like I was competing against the 8 year olds. The funny thing is that even though I was a Division I swimmer, I was a distance swimmer, so I wasn’t very good at the summer league sprint races. But I wasn’t trying to rack up medals, it was something done for fun.

So were you getting first place in your events at All Stars, or were high schoolers beating you? I posted that I think it’s pathetic because I would have won my events easily being a stroke and IM swimmer. That would have felt so empty considering I had access to NCAA training with certified strength and conditioning coaches at a university in a power conference. I could see it being a little different if you’re a distance swimmer at a smaller D1 program. There’s a wide range even within D1.

The example of a 17 year old high schooler placing at National is different. That high schooler is doing USA club swim training like everyone else in high school. That’s a more even playing field.

I wasn’t winning. I swam random things like breaststroke that I didn’t swim in college. I think I swam 50 free and was like 4th or 5th. The others in the heat were also going to swim in college. We were the same age. My high school club swim training was basically the same as my DI college swim training, I’m not sure why people think there is a big difference. The senior groups at clubs like NCAP or RMSC are as high level training as you can get.

Also not sure why people think that regular swimmers don’t want to compete against high level swimmers. I know someone who swam against Katie Ledecky at a high school meet. Katie won easily without
even trying. But the other kids there thought it was cool, and they can always say they raced Katie Ledecky. What’s wrong with that?

A random high school meet is different from someone’s final summer swim meet after competing their entire childhood. It is in poor taste for someone who won their events (or close to it) at 17 to then come back after a year of D1 swimming and win everything again. That takes the opportunity away from an 18 year old senior who won’t be able to come back after a year of college. There’s a time to be in the spotlight and a time to let others shine.

Huh? So it's unfair that a kid is good enough to win at both 17 and 18 yo? You want them to sit out so your kid can win at 18 yo because your kid is old for their grade or were redshirted? What if the other kid wasn't winning at 17 yo but matures and then is good enough to win for the first time at 18 yo? Is that unfair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is way to complicated to change it.

Also, it wouldn’t even eliminate the college swimmer issue since some have birthdays after swim season. If you want to eliminate college swimmers you could propose that rule directly but it won’t pass.

People were saying the same thing about kids wearing caps from their club teams. They changed that rule last year. So they do occasionally change the rules. With the lady whose son swam above age at nearly every level leading the rules committee I agree that a proposal related to reclassifying age groups won’t go far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is way to complicated to change it.

Also, it wouldn’t even eliminate the college swimmer issue since some have birthdays after swim season. If you want to eliminate college swimmers you could propose that rule directly but it won’t pass.

People were saying the same thing about kids wearing caps from their club teams. They changed that rule last year. So they do occasionally change the rules. With the lady whose son swam above age at nearly every level leading the rules committee I agree that a proposal related to reclassifying age groups won’t go far.

I agree that rules can be change - and the NVSL does change rules but it will not change when it benefits those in charge. Which was also why the rule was changed to what it is now.