Summer swim kids swimming in “wrong” age group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s evidence it changed in 2011:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=Jeff&lname=Gerber&sid=18660&stid=2

Otherwise how could he be 9 two years in a row?


Here’s evidence the cut off wasn’t June 1 going back to at least 2003:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=&lname=Hashemi&sid=6497&stid=1

Otherwise why would his age change in the middle of July?

You may need to seek professional help.
You are really hung up on this.
Each kid will compete in each 24 month bracket for 24 months.
There is a cutoff. The cutoff is the same (within 30 days) for all summer swim leagues in the DC Area.
I am sorry you feel that your dear child had to compete against someokne whose birthday was in June July or Auguat...but to qhjne for 23 pages? Really...is this about your child or is this about YOU? Let it go.

I’m not the original poster here. Jumped in late. Was just trying to help the person (maybe you?) who thought there was no evidence of cutoff other than June 1st. Relax a little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s evidence it changed in 2011:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=Jeff&lname=Gerber&sid=18660&stid=2

Otherwise how could he be 9 two years in a row?


Here’s evidence the cut off wasn’t June 1 going back to at least 2003:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=&lname=Hashemi&sid=6497&stid=1

Otherwise why would his age change in the middle of July?

That was me. But I wasn’t the one who called you crazy. Thanks for finding the evidence. I’m still curious when they switched to that system as it seems like a bad idea (which is probably why they seem to be the only major swim league not have done it ). They definitely had the June 1 system when the league was founded

You may need to seek professional help.
You are really hung up on this.
Each kid will compete in each 24 month bracket for 24 months.
There is a cutoff. The cutoff is the same (within 30 days) for all summer swim leagues in the DC Area.
I am sorry you feel that your dear child had to compete against someokne whose birthday was in June July or Auguat...but to qhjne for 23 pages? Really...is this about your child or is this about YOU? Let it go.

I’m not the original poster here. Jumped in late. Was just trying to help the person (maybe you?) who thought there was no evidence of cutoff other than June 1st. Relax a little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s evidence it changed in 2011:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=Jeff&lname=Gerber&sid=18660&stid=2

Otherwise how could he be 9 two years in a row?


Here’s evidence the cut off wasn’t June 1 going back to at least 2003:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=&lname=Hashemi&sid=6497&stid=1

Otherwise why would his age change in the middle of July?

You may need to seek professional help.
You are really hung up on this.
Each kid will compete in each 24 month bracket for 24 months.
There is a cutoff. The cutoff is the same (within 30 days) for all summer swim leagues in the DC Area.
I am sorry you feel that your dear child had to compete against someokne whose birthday was in June July or Auguat...but to qhjne for 23 pages? Really...is this about your child or is this about YOU? Let it go.

I’m not the original poster here. Jumped in late. Was just trying to help the person (maybe you?) who thought there was no evidence of cutoff other than June 1st. Relax a little.

That was me. But I wasn’t the one who called you crazy. Thanks for finding the evidence. I’m still curious when they switched to that system as it seems like a bad idea (which is probably why they seem to be the only major swim league not have done it ). They definitely had the June 1 system when the league was founded

[Anonymous]

Pretty much every swim league: setting the age cutoff to the swimmer’s age at the beginning of the season makes sense

NVSL: yes, we tried this other system but have decided our original method works better

DCurbanmom poster: No!!! A secret cabal of summer birthday parents is making behind the scene changes!!! I don’t like my child losing!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pretty much every swim league: setting the age cutoff to the swimmer’s age at the beginning of the season makes sense

Not true. Every single local summer league in the DC area uses a May or June cutoff. Not a single one ages up on the swimmers birthday. None of the other national summer swim leagues do either. You keep ignoring that fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I skipped a grade and turned 18 in March of my freshman year of college. Why can’t I compete as an 18 year old in an 18 and under league? Not a 19 year old, or even an old 18 year old. I was a year and a half younger than most of my classmates - grew later, drove later, etc. Let me have this one thing!

So as a college sophomore you would have wanted to spend your summer participating in summer swim with a group of high school kids and younger, none of whom were your classmates? Sure

Yes. I was the coach and taught swim lessons and lifeguarded. It was my summer job. And I swam in the meets, with people who I had been teammates with for years and were on my high school team. It’s not like I was competing against the 8 year olds. The funny thing is that even though I was a Division I swimmer, I was a distance swimmer, so I wasn’t very good at the summer league sprint races. But I wasn’t trying to rack up medals, it was something done for fun.

So were you getting first place in your events at All Stars, or were high schoolers beating you? I posted that I think it’s pathetic because I would have won my events easily being a stroke and IM swimmer. That would have felt so empty considering I had access to NCAA training with certified strength and conditioning coaches at a university in a power conference. I could see it being a little different if you’re a distance swimmer at a smaller D1 program. There’s a wide range even within D1.

The example of a 17 year old high schooler placing at National is different. That high schooler is doing USA club swim training like everyone else in high school. That’s a more even playing field.

I wasn’t winning. I swam random things like breaststroke that I didn’t swim in college. I think I swam 50 free and was like 4th or 5th. The others in the heat were also going to swim in college. We were the same age. My high school club swim training was basically the same as my DI college swim training, I’m not sure why people think there is a big difference. The senior groups at clubs like NCAP or RMSC are as high level training as you can get.

Also not sure why people think that regular swimmers don’t want to compete against high level swimmers. I know someone who swam against Katie Ledecky at a high school meet. Katie won easily without
even trying. But the other kids there thought it was cool, and they can always say they raced Katie Ledecky. What’s wrong with that?

A random high school meet is different from someone’s final summer swim meet after competing their entire childhood. It is in poor taste for someone who won their events (or close to it) at 17 to then come back after a year of D1 swimming and win everything again. That takes the opportunity away from an 18 year old senior who won’t be able to come back after a year of college. There’s a time to be in the spotlight and a time to let others shine.

Huh? So it's unfair that a kid is good enough to win at both 17 and 18 yo? You want them to sit out so your kid can win at 18 yo because your kid is old for their grade or were redshirted? What if the other kid wasn't winning at 17 yo but matures and then is good enough to win for the first time at 18 yo? Is that unfair?

I’m not worried for my own kids, LOL. I doubt either will be in this position. They are young, probably won’t ever be at that level, and have terrible summer swim birthdays. I would have been that 18 year old who came back after college and won everything. A high schooler that can win as a junior at 17 and again at 18, great for them. Coming back after you’ve graduated so you can beat a graduating senior who won’t have the chance to do what you’ve already done? Tacky. But I’m sure you crazy parents won’t agree because you don’t understand the point of summer swim, as evidenced by this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s evidence it changed in 2011:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=Jeff&lname=Gerber&sid=18660&stid=2

Otherwise how could he be 9 two years in a row?


Here’s evidence the cut off wasn’t June 1 going back to at least 2003:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=&lname=Hashemi&sid=6497&stid=1

Otherwise why would his age change in the middle of July?

I’m not the original poster here. Jumped in late. Was just trying to help the person (maybe you?) who thought there was no evidence of cutoff other than June 1st. Relax a little.

That was me. But I wasn’t the one who called you crazy. Thanks for finding the evidence. I’m still curious when they switched to that system as it seems like a bad idea (which is probably why they seem to be the only major swim league not have done it ). They definitely had the June 1 system when the league was founded

It's not evidence. Likely data error. Your last record doesn't prove what you think it proves.

According to the data that kids birthday is between 7/12 and 7/19 in 2003. Then in 2004 it's between 7/10 and 7/17 (meaning it must be 7/13, 7/14, 7/15, 7/16, or 7/17). But wait, in 2005 his birthday is between 6/25 and 7/2. That doesn't make sense. Then in 2008 he's 14 the whole year (except the meet his is marked as 13). Keep in mind you said the rule changed in 2011 so how could a kid be 14 the whole year in 2008 if his age changed in other years?

Oh, wait a little digging on the NVSL website and we see that they started using electronic scoring in 2008.

"The NVSL started using electronic software for meets with the 2008 season. So for 2008 and later we populate the website with electronic files that not only provide the basis for the meet results display but also a database of swimmer times that can be searched using the Leaders function."

Everything before that was by hand. You can find a nice document on historic times here: https://www.mynvsl.com/documents?folder_id=29405

I think we can chalk up your "evidence" to data error.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pretty much every swim league: setting the age cutoff to the swimmer’s age at the beginning of the season makes sense

Not true. Every single local summer league in the DC area uses a May or June cutoff. Not a single one ages up on the swimmers birthday. None of the other national summer swim leagues do either. You keep ignoring that fact.

I think you misread. That’s what they’re saying.

[Anonymous]

For the people saying the summer birthdays can help with later success but hurt kids who miss the cutoff, here is something to keep in mind. The most successful area swimmer over the past decade - Torri Huske - never competed in a summer league. Her parents only had her do year round swimming at AAC and I don’t know if they ever even joined a pool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s evidence it changed in 2011:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=Jeff&lname=Gerber&sid=18660&stid=2

Otherwise how could he be 9 two years in a row?


Here’s evidence the cut off wasn’t June 1 going back to at least 2003:

https://www.mynvsl.com/leaders?post=2&fname=&lname=Hashemi&sid=6497&stid=1

Otherwise why would his age change in the middle of July?

I’m not the original poster here. Jumped in late. Was just trying to help the person (maybe you?) who thought there was no evidence of cutoff other than June 1st. Relax a little.

That was me. But I wasn’t the one who called you crazy. Thanks for finding the evidence. I’m still curious when they switched to that system as it seems like a bad idea (which is probably why they seem to be the only major swim league not have done it ). They definitely had the June 1 system when the league was founded

It's not evidence. Likely data error. Your last record doesn't prove what you think it proves.

According to the data that kids birthday is between 7/12 and 7/19 in 2003. Then in 2004 it's between 7/10 and 7/17 (meaning it must be 7/13, 7/14, 7/15, 7/16, or 7/17). But wait, in 2005 his birthday is between 6/25 and 7/2. That doesn't make sense. Then in 2008 he's 14 the whole year (except the meet his is marked as 13). Keep in mind you said the rule changed in 2011 so how could a kid be 14 the whole year in 2008 if his age changed in other years?

Oh, wait a little digging on the NVSL website and we see that they started using electronic scoring in 2008.

"The NVSL started using electronic software for meets with the 2008 season. So for 2008 and later we populate the website with electronic files that not only provide the basis for the meet results display but also a database of swimmer times that can be searched using the Leaders function."

Everything before that was by hand. You can find a nice document on historic times here: https://www.mynvsl.com/documents?folder_id=29405

I think we can chalk up your "evidence" to data error.

Here's a link to a 2011 parent handbook for an NVSL team referencing adding up in the middle of the season: http://ast22003.org/redtide/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/parents_handbook_2011.pdf

[Anonymous]

It’s also possible the NVSL website lists the age he swam as (i.e., even though he was 13 he could have entered as a 14 year old and because it’s the same age group precision didn’t matter anyway).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the people saying the summer birthdays can help with later success but hurt kids who miss the cutoff, here is something to keep in mind. The most successful area swimmer over the past decade - Torri Huske - never competed in a summer league. Her parents only had her do year round swimming at AAC and I don’t know if they ever even joined a pool.

Tori is a true outlier an earlier poster was looking for. Anthony Grimm is another. I don’t think anyone is saying summer birthdays help kids truly compete with the Tori’s and the Antony’s of the world in the long term. In fact, it’s much more likely those older than age group kids, and their parents, end up with inflated egos based on early success in the younger age groups and then flame out when other kids catch up to them when the age differential alone plays less of a role.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pretty much every swim league: setting the age cutoff to the swimmer’s age at the beginning of the season makes sense

NVSL: yes, we tried this other system but have decided our original method works better

DCurbanmom poster: No!!! A secret cabal of summer birthday parents is making behind the scene changes!!! I don’t like my child losing!!!

This. I haven’t looked at this thread in a week and can’t believe it’s still going on. The idea of a secret plot be parents whose children have summer birthday ti advantage them in rec league swimming is so hilarious to me. I can’t believe people actually believe this.

[Anonymous]

My kids started NVSL just before the rule change, so I remember both. Found this in my email archives from spring 2012 from our Team rep at the time (obviously in favor of the change.. but gives some context on what was required for it to pass). Although this implies it was in place for quite a while - not sure how accurate the 30 years is.

----------------------------
Last night the NVSL held their annual rules meeting. 70 clubs were represented at the meeting. Most of the rule changes were little more than NVSL admin housekeeping items, but there were votes on two items very important to our swimmers - the age rule changed and 8&u butterfly was added to the dual meets.

Effective this season, swimmers will compete in the age group for their age on June 1. If one of our swimmers have a birthday between June 1 and the Divisional Championships on July 28, she/he won't have to change age groups. That swimmer will finish the season in the same age group in which she/he began the season.

Many clubs have been trying to change this rule for over 30 years. Rule changes need approval of 2/3s of the Team Reps present and voting. This rule change needed 46 votes for approval and it passed 47-21.

NVSL has always been one of the very few summer swim leagues in the nation that had the immediate age rule. NVSL Dive Teams have used the June 1 cut-off date for years. The the swimmers will be competing under the same rule as the divers.

The other major change is that 25 m/yd fly has been added to the dual meet program for 8&u boys and girls.
------------------------------------

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids started NVSL just before the rule change, so I remember both. Found this in my email archives from spring 2012 from our Team rep at the time (obviously in favor of the change.. but gives some context on what was required for it to pass). Although this implies it was in place for quite a while - not sure how accurate the 30 years is.

----------------------------
Last night the NVSL held their annual rules meeting. 70 clubs were represented at the meeting. Most of the rule changes were little more than NVSL admin housekeeping items, but there were votes on two items very important to our swimmers - the age rule changed and 8&u butterfly was added to the dual meets.

Effective this season, swimmers will compete in the age group for their age on June 1. If one of our swimmers have a birthday between June 1 and the Divisional Championships on July 28, she/he won't have to change age groups. That swimmer will finish the season in the same age group in which she/he began the season.

Many clubs have been trying to change this rule for over 30 years. Rule changes need approval of 2/3s of the Team Reps present and voting. This rule change needed 46 votes for approval and it passed 47-21.

NVSL has always been one of the very few summer swim leagues in the nation that had the immediate age rule. NVSL Dive Teams have used the June 1 cut-off date for years. The the swimmers will be competing under the same rule as the divers.

The other major change is that 25 m/yd fly has been added to the dual meet program for 8&u boys and girls.
------------------------------------

thank you so much for providing more historical context here. It clearly was a contentious topic at the time. Even though it barely passed according to the email, the 2/3 requirement is pretty stiff. I think this goes against the theory that a small number of parents with June/July birthdays pushed it through. Like has been said many times in this forum, and confirmed in your email, NVSL is now in line with most other summer leagues.