Board of Veterans Appeals (Attorney Advisor)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You’re correct, BVA experience is generally not marketable. Most employers in the private and federal sectors don’t care about veterans law. But, BVA experience is very helpful for attorneys who want to become a law clerk at the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC). Most of the law clerks there at CAVC have BVA experience.




I know a lot of GS-12 SSA attorneys who are former BVA attorney. SSA loves to hire BVA attorneys because the work is so similar. In fact, the current Executive Director of SSA’s Appeals Council was a supervisor at BVA. SSA hired her to increase the productivity of decision writer attorneys/paralegal specialists. SSA is a good transfer option for BVA attorneys because with BVA experience, you wont have to start off as a GS-9 attorney; SSA will let you transfer as a GS11 or even give you the maximum grade of GS-12.

But what is the career path at SSA? If you like writing decisions and don't want to move up to a high GS-level, it could be fine.

Most decision writing attorneys at SSA retire as a GS-12. Promotions above GS-12 are possible, but the competition for GS-13 positions is intense and years can pass before a GS-13 vacancy opens up. It’s much easier for a decision writer paralegal to be promoted to GS-13 and GS-14 positions because the union advocates for promotional opportunities for paralegals to address systemic racism at SSA (the attorney decision writers are mostly white while the paralegal decision writers are mostly minorities). At most SSA offices, a GS-14 paralegal supervises the attorney staff and reviews their work.

This is specific to the decision-writing position. In the DC area, SSA employees are more likely to be working at the Appeals Council level. There is an application process to apply from a GS-12 to a GS-13, but nearly everyone halfway decent gets to a 13 within 2-3 years. Paralegals are not supervising attorneys at the Appeals Council level and in fact, it is more common for attorneys to move into supervisory positions as the agency has not hired non-attorneys since about 2009.

I agree the decision writer position is sort of a dead end, but if you’re in the DC area, there is a somewhat competitive opportunity to move to a GS-14 in addition to a lot of detail opportunities outside of just disability program work.

I recently left SSA and a paralegal was my boss. My division director was also a paralegal.

Where did you go after leaving SSA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You’re correct, BVA experience is generally not marketable. Most employers in the private and federal sectors don’t care about veterans law. But, BVA experience is very helpful for attorneys who want to become a law clerk at the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC). Most of the law clerks there at CAVC have BVA experience.




I know a lot of GS-12 SSA attorneys who are former BVA attorney. SSA loves to hire BVA attorneys because the work is so similar. In fact, the current Executive Director of SSA’s Appeals Council was a supervisor at BVA. SSA hired her to increase the productivity of decision writer attorneys/paralegal specialists. SSA is a good transfer option for BVA attorneys because with BVA experience, you wont have to start off as a GS-9 attorney; SSA will let you transfer as a GS11 or even give you the maximum grade of GS-12.

But what is the career path at SSA? If you like writing decisions and don't want to move up to a high GS-level, it could be fine.

Most decision writing attorneys at SSA retire as a GS-12. Promotions above GS-12 are possible, but the competition for GS-13 positions is intense and years can pass before a GS-13 vacancy opens up. It’s much easier for a decision writer paralegal to be promoted to GS-13 and GS-14 positions because the union advocates for promotional opportunities for paralegals to address systemic racism at SSA (the attorney decision writers are mostly white while the paralegal decision writers are mostly minorities). At most SSA offices, a GS-14 paralegal supervises the attorney staff and reviews their work.

This is specific to the decision-writing position. In the DC area, SSA employees are more likely to be working at the Appeals Council level. There is an application process to apply from a GS-12 to a GS-13, but nearly everyone halfway decent gets to a 13 within 2-3 years. Paralegals are not supervising attorneys at the Appeals Council level and in fact, it is more common for attorneys to move into supervisory positions as the agency has not hired non-attorneys since about 2009.

I agree the decision writer position is sort of a dead end, but if you’re in the DC area, there is a somewhat competitive opportunity to move to a GS-14 in addition to a lot of detail opportunities outside of just disability program work.

I recently left SSA and a paralegal was my boss. My division director was also a paralegal.

Where did you go after leaving SSA?

Like a lot of SSA attorney decision writers, I left SSA to join BVA with the hope of reaching GS-14. However, I know realize that my greed blinded me to the realities of the terrible work environment at BVA. I knew how terrible BVA was before I joined BVA. Yet, I still made the transfer. Unfortunately, I left a job that was manageable and stable for a job that is not viable in the long term. I’m able to meet production now by working 50-65 hours a week (unpaid overtime). But, I wonder whether I will be able to work these hours as a I grow older and have more family responsibilities (whether caring for children or elderly parents)..

Having seen BVA management fire career GS-14s with decades of service for failing to meet production (one had cancer, the other has to take care of a sick relative), I fear for my future, as I know management won’t hesitate to fire, even after decades of loyal service, if my production falls short.

[Anonymous]

Correction: *now realize* not “know realize”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You’re correct, BVA experience is generally not marketable. Most employers in the private and federal sectors don’t care about veterans law. But, BVA experience is very helpful for attorneys who want to become a law clerk at the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC). Most of the law clerks there at CAVC have BVA experience.




I know a lot of GS-12 SSA attorneys who are former BVA attorney. SSA loves to hire BVA attorneys because the work is so similar. In fact, the current Executive Director of SSA’s Appeals Council was a supervisor at BVA. SSA hired her to increase the productivity of decision writer attorneys/paralegal specialists. SSA is a good transfer option for BVA attorneys because with BVA experience, you wont have to start off as a GS-9 attorney; SSA will let you transfer as a GS11 or even give you the maximum grade of GS-12.

But what is the career path at SSA? If you like writing decisions and don't want to move up to a high GS-level, it could be fine.

Most decision writing attorneys at SSA retire as a GS-12. Promotions above GS-12 are possible, but the competition for GS-13 positions is intense and years can pass before a GS-13 vacancy opens up. It’s much easier for a decision writer paralegal to be promoted to GS-13 and GS-14 positions because the union advocates for promotional opportunities for paralegals to address systemic racism at SSA (the attorney decision writers are mostly white while the paralegal decision writers are mostly minorities). At most SSA offices, a GS-14 paralegal supervises the attorney staff and reviews their work.

This is specific to the decision-writing position. In the DC area, SSA employees are more likely to be working at the Appeals Council level. There is an application process to apply from a GS-12 to a GS-13, but nearly everyone halfway decent gets to a 13 within 2-3 years. Paralegals are not supervising attorneys at the Appeals Council level and in fact, it is more common for attorneys to move into supervisory positions as the agency has not hired non-attorneys since about 2009.

I agree the decision writer position is sort of a dead end, but if you’re in the DC area, there is a somewhat competitive opportunity to move to a GS-14 in addition to a lot of detail opportunities outside of just disability program work.

I recently left SSA and a paralegal was my boss. My division director was also a paralegal.

Where did you go after leaving SSA?

Like a lot of SSA attorney decision writers, I left SSA to join BVA with the hope of reaching GS-14. However, I know realize that my greed blinded me to the realities of the terrible work environment at BVA. I knew how terrible BVA was before I joined BVA. Yet, I still made the transfer. Unfortunately, I left a job that was manageable and stable for a job that is not viable in the long term. I’m able to meet production now by working 50-65 hours a week (unpaid overtime). But, I wonder whether I will be able to work these hours as a I grow older and have more family responsibilities (whether caring for children or elderly parents)..

Having seen BVA management fire career GS-14s with decades of service for failing to meet production (one had cancer, the other has to take care of a sick relative), I fear for my future, as I know management won’t hesitate to fire, even after decades of loyal service, if my production falls short.

It’s hard to know how truly, truly, inhumane it is without working here. It’s an awful place. I wish this thread was around when I was researching the job, I would not have even bothered with the interview.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You’re correct, BVA experience is generally not marketable. Most employers in the private and federal sectors don’t care about veterans law. But, BVA experience is very helpful for attorneys who want to become a law clerk at the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC). Most of the law clerks there at CAVC have BVA experience.




I know a lot of GS-12 SSA attorneys who are former BVA attorney. SSA loves to hire BVA attorneys because the work is so similar. In fact, the current Executive Director of SSA’s Appeals Council was a supervisor at BVA. SSA hired her to increase the productivity of decision writer attorneys/paralegal specialists. SSA is a good transfer option for BVA attorneys because with BVA experience, you wont have to start off as a GS-9 attorney; SSA will let you transfer as a GS11 or even give you the maximum grade of GS-12.

But what is the career path at SSA? If you like writing decisions and don't want to move up to a high GS-level, it could be fine.

Most decision writing attorneys at SSA retire as a GS-12. Promotions above GS-12 are possible, but the competition for GS-13 positions is intense and years can pass before a GS-13 vacancy opens up. It’s much easier for a decision writer paralegal to be promoted to GS-13 and GS-14 positions because the union advocates for promotional opportunities for paralegals to address systemic racism at SSA (the attorney decision writers are mostly white while the paralegal decision writers are mostly minorities). At most SSA offices, a GS-14 paralegal supervises the attorney staff and reviews their work.

This is specific to the decision-writing position. In the DC area, SSA employees are more likely to be working at the Appeals Council level. There is an application process to apply from a GS-12 to a GS-13, but nearly everyone halfway decent gets to a 13 within 2-3 years. Paralegals are not supervising attorneys at the Appeals Council level and in fact, it is more common for attorneys to move into supervisory positions as the agency has not hired non-attorneys since about 2009.

I agree the decision writer position is sort of a dead end, but if you’re in the DC area, there is a somewhat competitive opportunity to move to a GS-14 in addition to a lot of detail opportunities outside of just disability program work.

I recently left SSA and a paralegal was my boss. My division director was also a paralegal.

Where did you go after leaving SSA?

Like a lot of SSA attorney decision writers, I left SSA to join BVA with the hope of reaching GS-14. However, I know realize that my greed blinded me to the realities of the terrible work environment at BVA. I knew how terrible BVA was before I joined BVA. Yet, I still made the transfer. Unfortunately, I left a job that was manageable and stable for a job that is not viable in the long term. I’m able to meet production now by working 50-65 hours a week (unpaid overtime). But, I wonder whether I will be able to work these hours as a I grow older and have more family responsibilities (whether caring for children or elderly parents)..

Having seen BVA management fire career GS-14s with decades of service for failing to meet production (one had cancer, the other has to take care of a sick relative), I fear for my future, as I know management won’t hesitate to fire, even after decades of loyal service, if my production falls short.

It’s hard to know how truly, truly, inhumane it is without working here. It’s an awful place. I wish this thread was around when I was researching the job, I would not have even bothered with the interview.

Don't despair, while your BVA experience isn't marketable for other attorney jobs, I don't think it will hinder your job search so long as you're will to accept entry GS-11 attorney positions.

[Anonymous]

The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

While most of the vocal defenders of BVA upper management’s policies are BVA first level managers and judges, don’t forget the junior BVA attorneys who vigorously defend management to get on management’s good side. I’ve seen attorneys like this get promoted into the ranks of management very quickly.

Unfortunately , the “yes men” culture at the Board and the unreasonable production standard adversely harm disabled veterans, as the attorneys and judges reviewing their disability cases take all kinds of shortcuts to meet thee quota. Specifically, I’ve noticed a marked increased in the remand rate at the Board since FY2018, when upper management significantly increased the production quota. That makes plenty of sense since it’s much easier and faster to write a remand than a denial. But, for veterans, the endless remands mean that there is no finality and many veterans die before a decision is made.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

While most of the vocal defenders of BVA upper management’s policies are BVA first level managers and judges, don’t forget the junior BVA attorneys who vigorously defend management to get on management’s good side. I’ve seen attorneys like this get promoted into the ranks of management very quickly.

Unfortunately , the “yes men” culture at the Board and the unreasonable production standard adversely harm disabled veterans, as the attorneys and judges reviewing their disability cases take all kinds of shortcuts to meet thee quota. Specifically, I’ve noticed a marked increased in the remand rate at the Board since FY2018, when upper management significantly increased the production quota. That makes plenty of sense since it’s much easier and faster to write a remand than a denial. But, for veterans, the endless remands mean that there is no finality and many veterans die before a decision is made.

Forcing a bunch of poorly trained overworked attorneys to skim a claims file and pump out as many decisions as possible does not help the mission and is a disservice to every Veteran waiting for an answer on their appeal. But the agency and congress only care about numbers, numbers, numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

While most of the vocal defenders of BVA upper management’s policies are BVA first level managers and judges, don’t forget the junior BVA attorneys who vigorously defend management to get on management’s good side. I’ve seen attorneys like this get promoted into the ranks of management very quickly.

Unfortunately , the “yes men” culture at the Board and the unreasonable production standard adversely harm disabled veterans, as the attorneys and judges reviewing their disability cases take all kinds of shortcuts to meet thee quota. Specifically, I’ve noticed a marked increased in the remand rate at the Board since FY2018, when upper management significantly increased the production quota. That makes plenty of sense since it’s much easier and faster to write a remand than a denial. But, for veterans, the endless remands mean that there is no finality and many veterans die before a decision is made.

Forcing a bunch of poorly trained overworked attorneys to skim a claims file and pump out as many decisions as possible does not help the mission and is a disservice to every Veteran waiting for an answer on their appeal. But the agency and congress only care about numbers, numbers, numbers.

Can you just approve, chill, and live life? I heard this is the BVA way

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

While most of the vocal defenders of BVA upper management’s policies are BVA first level managers and judges, don’t forget the junior BVA attorneys who vigorously defend management to get on management’s good side. I’ve seen attorneys like this get promoted into the ranks of management very quickly.

Unfortunately , the “yes men” culture at the Board and the unreasonable production standard adversely harm disabled veterans, as the attorneys and judges reviewing their disability cases take all kinds of shortcuts to meet thee quota. Specifically, I’ve noticed a marked increased in the remand rate at the Board since FY2018, when upper management significantly increased the production quota. That makes plenty of sense since it’s much easier and faster to write a remand than a denial. But, for veterans, the endless remands mean that there is no finality and many veterans die before a decision is made.

Forcing a bunch of poorly trained overworked attorneys to skim a claims file and pump out as many decisions as possible does not help the mission and is a disservice to every Veteran waiting for an answer on their appeal. But the agency and congress only care about numbers, numbers, numbers.

Can you just approve, chill, and live life? I heard this is the BVA way

You heard wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The BVA workload is absolutely unreasonable, and it’s just insane that people defend it especially in light of the position it puts attorneys in and the quality of work being churned out for veterans. & the perks of the job like paid overtime if you could keep up just isn’t there any longer. Don’t apply or move on if possible.

The only people saying that the workload is reasonable are management and the GS-15s who are highly paid to implement management’s terrible policies. Everyone else freely admits the workload is unreasonable.

While most of the vocal defenders of BVA upper management’s policies are BVA first level managers and judges, don’t forget the junior BVA attorneys who vigorously defend management to get on management’s good side. I’ve seen attorneys like this get promoted into the ranks of management very quickly.

Unfortunately , the “yes men” culture at the Board and the unreasonable production standard adversely harm disabled veterans, as the attorneys and judges reviewing their disability cases take all kinds of shortcuts to meet thee quota. Specifically, I’ve noticed a marked increased in the remand rate at the Board since FY2018, when upper management significantly increased the production quota. That makes plenty of sense since it’s much easier and faster to write a remand than a denial. But, for veterans, the endless remands mean that there is no finality and many veterans die before a decision is made.

Forcing a bunch of poorly trained overworked attorneys to skim a claims file and pump out as many decisions as possible does not help the mission and is a disservice to every Veteran waiting for an answer on their appeal. But the agency and congress only care about numbers, numbers, numbers.

I hear you, but what can we do? It’s not worth the stress and the aggravation to go against the culture at the Board. To succeed, you must do what the vast majority of attorneys are doing - reviewing only the medical records that came in since the most recent appeal. This means that if you get assigned a case file that’s 3,000 pages long, you only need to review 200-300 pages. I know that Cheryl told Congress that Board attorneys are able to review tens of thousands of records AND write a decision within 10 hours, but don’t listen to Cheryl. Even Cheryl knows that the unofficial BVA policy is to review the most recent evidence, as that is what I was told to do when I joined the Board. Give that the U.S. Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims remands 80 percent of BVA decisions for weeks, I wouldn’t worry about getting the decision wrong, as most Board decisions contain significant errors.

[Anonymous]

Correction: *given* not “give””

[Anonymous]

Has this particular job at the BVA ever received media profession? I would be very curious to see an expose on this, particularly because the unreasonable demands directly impacts veterans. It clearly needs sunlight and exposure. Have people reached out to sources?

[Anonymous]

I'm not being hyperbolic - 60 Minutes would be a perfect venue for this. And would force management to at least provide statements that they know are false.