Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Well, one barrier would be the reliance on a high test score, so let's look at other factors, ie, "holistic" approach.

Why would MCPS commission a $1mil+ study which recommended "broadening the definition of gifted" and "increasing URM participation" and not follow the recommendations?

So you think that a single test score, on a single day, is a better measure of a student's ability? I don't.

You evidently think that the only way to increase participation by black, poor, and Latino kids is to admit unqualified kids. For this to be true, the magnets would already have to have been including ALL of the qualified black, poor, and Latino kids. Do you think that the magnets were doing this? I don't.

MCPS is following the recommendations of the Metis study -- by trying to remove the barriers that were keeping out qualified black, poor, and Latino kids.

By the way, I really hope that you don't have any kids who will be admitted to a magnet program under the new processes, or, if you do, that you have nothing to do with the black or Latino kids in your kids' classes. Yes, I'm assuming that you're not black or Latino.

NP here. Define 'qualified' for me. What are the transparent and easily quantifiable criteria for 'giftedness'?

If MCPS introduced 'the holistic approach', why did they do away with teacher's recommendations? You'd think that a homeroom teacher would notice a child who's off-the-charts gifted but just doesn't score well on standardized tests. Also, why did they simplify the test compared to years prior? The percentage of kids who actively prepped for the test was miniscule, the majority was still going in cold turkey. The only explanation that comes to mind is, MCPS wanted more kids - of all races - to score higher, which would give the system a chance to make up the racial composition of the gifted classes as they see fit using their 'broad definition of giftedness'.

If they'd truly wanted to level the playing field, they should have tested every single 3rd grader using the hard version of the test and then admit the top 3%.

I think there may be many factors involved. Considering teacher recommendations, I agree, teachers often have great insights about kids and their potential/abilities. However, research shows teacher recommendations are often biased and favor some groups over others. They are subjective. Many teachers have preconceived ideas about what a gifted student looks like (just like it seems many in this discussion).

I'm not sure you can conclude the test is "easier", I've heard that it is shorter, but nothing to confirm it's "easier" or measures anything different. Actually, I think it's easier to prep for the test now b/c it is more transparent what test is being used. I think they moved to something shorter b/c it allows them to test more students effectively and efficiently. Cost may also be an issue.

It is my understanding that the selection process remains race-blind so race is not considered as a factor when selecting qualified candidates. Testing and reviewing the data of a broader group makes it more likely you will find a group of qualified students from different backgrounds.

The other thing they do talk about is looking to see if a student has a peer group in their home school. That would explain why sometimes the numbers seem different. If only one or two students have consistent high scores on all the things they are looking at, they stand out, if at another school there is a group of 10 kids with similar scores, they have a group that can be taught together.

yes, we all know who the HGC are cateringto and not catering to. the fact of the matter is as a county school system, MCPS cannot and does not serve its gifted student populace well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just a data point.

2017 PARCC scores for Montgomery County 3rd grade students (this year's HGC pool) by race

English - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

English - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 12.2%
Black - 42.7%
Hispanic - 52.7%
White - 14.1%

Math - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

Math - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 6.8%
Black - 34.9%
Hispanic - 39.4%
White - 9.9%

Is there a point for this data point, because from what I see, there are many URM that should be tested and would thrive in a magnet environment -

Math Met or Exceeded Expectations:

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

English:

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

The data also shows there are MANY more Asian and white kids who could thrive in a magnet environment. Why aren't we commissioning studies and changing policies to figure out a way to get more of them into the programs?

Great point. Fairfax can serve a much larger PERCENTAGE of its student body in gifted or magnet programs and not send them back to home schools citing "they'll do just fine wherever".

No teach to potential going on here. DIY while they pour resources into the bottom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not actually making that argument, just saying there are many explanations for why black and Hispanic students do not appear at HGCs in as high numbers as some would like.
It's not all about simple "barriers to access" like getting their parents' attention so they can apply.

Of course there are many explanations. Most of them, MCPS can't do anything about. However, MCPS can do something about barriers to access (which are not just limited to getting the students' parents' attention).

free lyft rights to all to testing centers!

$100k more from taxes to do so, no problemo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just a data point.

2017 PARCC scores for Montgomery County 3rd grade students (this year's HGC pool) by race

English - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

English - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 12.2%
Black - 42.7%
Hispanic - 52.7%
White - 14.1%

Math - Met or Exceeded expectations

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

Math - Did not meet or Partially met expectations

Asian - 6.8%
Black - 34.9%
Hispanic - 39.4%
White - 9.9%

Is there a point for this data point, because from what I see, there are many URM that should be tested and would thrive in a magnet environment -

Math Met or Exceeded Expectations:

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

English:

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

The data also shows there are MANY more Asian and white kids who could thrive in a magnet environment. Why aren't we commissioning studies and changing policies to figure out a way to get more of them into the programs?

Great point. Fairfax can serve a much larger PERCENTAGE of its student body in gifted or magnet programs and not send them back to home schools citing "they'll do just fine wherever".

No teach to potential going on here. DIY while they pour resources into the bottom.

Sadly, I have to agree. I know my child would benefit from a magnet environment, but no one is preoccupied with his potential, since Asian and white kids, as PP has rightfully noted, 'will do just fine wherever'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

Please, I beg MCPS to give a free programs to people and see how many show up to do test prep. If only it was that easy!! Oh wait! It will get used by the well-off Blacks and Hispanics, who are already profiting by Affirmative Action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Is there a point for this data point, because from what I see, there are many URM that should be tested and would thrive in a magnet environment -

Math Met or Exceeded Expectations:

Asian - 82.1%
Black - 37.9%
Hispanic - 32.9%
White - 74%

English:

Asian - 72.2%
Black - 34%
Hispanic - 24.5%
White - 67.8%

The data also shows there are MANY more Asian and white kids who could thrive in a magnet environment. Why aren't we commissioning studies and changing policies to figure out a way to get more of them into the programs?

Great point. Fairfax can serve a much larger PERCENTAGE of its student body in gifted or magnet programs and not send them back to home schools citing "they'll do just fine wherever".

No teach to potential going on here. DIY while they pour resources into the bottom.

+1 to the bolded above. If money has to be poured into any group, it should be the poor - regardless of their race. There should not be quota systems at all for admissions. level the playing field for the poor but in the end the admission should be based on merit not on race.

[Anonymous]

Money has been poured into the title one and focus schools. The classroooms in those schools have 25-30%less students, more supporting staff like esol teachers, classroom aids in lower grade. Mcps surpoorted Saturday school offers free or low cost classes in silver spring and gaithurberg. Unfortunately, money is not the solution. Has anyonr heard what Facebook funder did in Newark? A lots of money were spent but the experiment failed spectacularly.
We lived in Germantown a few years ago before my DD started School. On the weekend in local library, only few families are from non asian and white families.
In mcps, most of AA and Hi students who have done well are from immigrant families where education is valued and many parents are educated in their native counties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

Actually, the prevailing theory on why the USMNT failed to secure a World Cup spot is because our pipeline has been broken by high-priced travel teams. The truly great players aren't getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry are too high, and because the US relies on super expensive travel teams to develop talent up through high school.

Maybe the same is true of academics. Our best and brightest aren't even getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry for the magnet programs is too high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Money has been poured into the title one and focus schools. The classroooms in those schools have 25-30%less students, more supporting staff like esol teachers, classroom aids in lower grade. Mcps surpoorted Saturday school offers free or low cost classes in silver spring and gaithurberg. Unfortunately, money is not the solution. Has anyonr heard what Facebook funder did in Newark? A lots of money were spent but the experiment failed spectacularly.
We lived in Germantown a few years ago before my DD started School. On the weekend in local library, only few families are from non asian and white families.
In mcps, most of AA and Hi students who have done well are from immigrant families where education is valued and many parents are educated in their native counties.

Counterpoint - I actually have a child in the Saturday School program that you describe and that cafeteria is FULL every Saturday morning. Similarly, the DTSS library is packed every weekend with families of all backgrounds, including many many families that are clearly first generation Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

Actually, the prevailing theory on why the USMNT failed to secure a World Cup spot is because our pipeline has been broken by high-priced travel teams. The truly great players aren't getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry are too high, and because the US relies on super expensive travel teams to develop talent up through high school.

Maybe the same is true of academics. Our best and brightest aren't even getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry for the magnet programs is too high.

Would you mind clarifying who 'your' best and brightest are and what makes you think they aren't getting into the pipeline?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

Actually, the prevailing theory on why the USMNT failed to secure a World Cup spot is because our pipeline has been broken by high-priced travel teams. The truly great players aren't getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry are too high, and because the US relies on super expensive travel teams to develop talent up through high school.

Maybe the same is true of academics. Our best and brightest aren't even getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry for the magnet programs is too high.

Would you mind clarifying who 'your' best and brightest are and what makes you think they aren't getting into the pipeline?

I mean ours collectively as a country. If gifted programs continue to focus on well-prepared middle and upper middle class kids, who is getting left behind? The next Otis Boykin? The next Mae Jemison?

We are going to collectively benefit if we're sure that we're identifying ALL the kids who would benefit. Just like the USMNT would benefit if the soccer pipeline in our country weren't dominated by kids who can pay to play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

Then mcps should consider fund the urm students to attend these classes if they are so effective. Funny nobody would think that averages players would suddenly become star athletes just because they attended special clinics or hired private coach.

Actually, the prevailing theory on why the USMNT failed to secure a World Cup spot is because our pipeline has been broken by high-priced travel teams. The truly great players aren't getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry are too high, and because the US relies on super expensive travel teams to develop talent up through high school.

Maybe the same is true of academics. Our best and brightest aren't even getting into the pipeline because the barriers to entry for the magnet programs is too high.

Whose best and brightest? The best and brightest of URMs (MC or UMC children of educated immigrants) are already in the pipeline. The other URM (poor AAs and illegal HI) are not responding at all when you want to engage them because they do not want to study or become a nerd. The engagement cannot come from poorly educated parents. The crux of the problem is that majority of the poor (who are mainly blacks and hispanics) do not care about bridging the achievement gap. They want money and a good life but they have not made the connection between educating themselves and creating a good life. Want to give them freebies? Yes, they will take that. Want them to study in a free programs? Crickets!

The main issue is poverty and low literacy among the parents. This is the universal truth in all countries. In this country though the poverty and low literacy rate is among the URMs unfortunately and so this has become a race issue. The same dynamics is among the poor Whites in Appalachia - too poor and poorly educated to think beyond their basic needs of food, water and shelter.

[Anonymous]

"The main issue is poverty and low literacy among the parents. This is the universal truth in all countries. In this country though the poverty and low literacy rate is among the URMs unfortunately and so this has become a race issue. The same dynamics is among the poor Whites in Appalachia - too poor and poorly educated to think beyond their basic needs of food, water and shelter."
You forget to mention Drug.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Money has been poured into the title one and focus schools. The classroooms in those schools have 25-30%less students, more supporting staff like esol teachers, classroom aids in lower grade. Mcps surpoorted Saturday school offers free or low cost classes in silver spring and gaithurberg. Unfortunately, money is not the solution. Has anyonr heard what Facebook funder did in Newark? A lots of money were spent but the experiment failed spectacularly.
We lived in Germantown a few years ago before my DD started School. On the weekend in local library, only few families are from non asian and white families.
In mcps, most of AA and Hi students who have done well are from immigrant families where education is valued and many parents are educated in their native counties.

You must have been going to a different library in Germantown from the one I go to.