Do unmotivated kids get into HGC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


The data also shows there are MANY more Asian and white kids who could thrive in a magnet environment. Why aren't we commissioning studies and changing policies to figure out a way to get more of them into the programs?

In fact, the Metis study addressed that issue too.

Lots of kids would do well in the magnet programs So I don't understand why (some) people are having a hard time with the idea that there are black and Hispanic kids who are not in the magnet programs who would do well in the magnet programs.

It would be foolish to think there aren't black and Hispanic kids who deserve to be in the magnet programs and who would thrive there. I am all for all the things they are doing to find those kids and figure out a way to help them attend the magnets. But it's equally foolish to argue that they should be in the programs in the same percentage that they are represented in the overall school population when every test we have shows that URM students are not performing as well as their white and Asian peers by the time they need to apply to these programs. Maybe they need to start a magnet program that targets exceptionally bright kids as early as K so that they can offset the years of advantages many wealthy white and Asian children have growing up by 3rd when the first magnet applications are done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

By headcount, yes. By representative percentile, no.

If student body A has 15 exceptional members and student body B has 368 exceptional members, selecting 5 from each group does not make an equitable representation. Nor a fair one.

Fortunately MCPS is not doing that.

But I think you're onto something. I think that there are white and Asian posters on DCUM who think that education is a pie, and if black and Hispanic kids get more, their kids will get less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in Math by race
Asian 43.8%
Black 6.6%
Hispanic 5.7%
White 29.3%

Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in English by race
Asian 16.2%
Black 2.7%
Hispanic 1.4%
White 11.4%

Percentage of students accepted at HGCs by race, in the year studied in the Metis report
Asian 21.3%
Black 8.9%
Hispanic 10.1%
White 22.3%

I strongly agree with removing some barriers to access such as providing buses to testing and conducting a universal review. I think this will help poor students and those from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of race. It’s the focus on race in the report and by MCPS that bothers me.

From looking at these test scores, you could argue that black and Hispanic students are OVERrepresented in acceptances at elementary magnets.

No, you couldn't, or at least you couldn't with validity. You're comparing apples and oranges. The test scores reflect the percent of students in that group who "exceeded expectations" -- i.e., 43.8% of Asian students "exceeded expectations. The HGC numbers reflect the percent of students at the HGC who are in each group.

No, you're wrong. The HGC percentages represent percentage of white applicants accepted over white applicants who applied. Otherwise those numbers would add up to 100 or close to 100 if there were a lot of multi-racial kids or due to rounding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It would be foolish to think there aren't black and Hispanic kids who deserve to be in the magnet programs and who would thrive there. I am all for all the things they are doing to find those kids and figure out a way to help them attend the magnets. But it's equally foolish to argue that they should be in the programs in the same percentage that they are represented in the overall school population when every test we have shows that URM students are not performing as well as their white and Asian peers by the time they need to apply to these programs. Maybe they need to start a magnet program that targets exceptionally bright kids as early as K so that they can offset the years of advantages many wealthy white and Asian children have growing up by 3rd when the first magnet applications are done.

That's a straw man. Nobody is saying that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in Math by race
Asian 43.8%
Black 6.6%
Hispanic 5.7%
White 29.3%

Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in English by race
Asian 16.2%
Black 2.7%
Hispanic 1.4%
White 11.4%

Percentage of students accepted at HGCs by race, in the year studied in the Metis report
Asian 21.3%
Black 8.9%
Hispanic 10.1%
White 22.3%

I strongly agree with removing some barriers to access such as providing buses to testing and conducting a universal review. I think this will help poor students and those from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of race. It’s the focus on race in the report and by MCPS that bothers me.

From looking at these test scores, you could argue that black and Hispanic students are OVERrepresented in acceptances at elementary magnets.

No, you couldn't, or at least you couldn't with validity. You're comparing apples and oranges. The test scores reflect the percent of students in that group who "exceeded expectations" -- i.e., 43.8% of Asian students "exceeded expectations. The HGC numbers reflect the percent of students at the HGC who are in each group.

No, you're wrong. The HGC percentages represent percentage of white applicants accepted over white applicants who applied. Otherwise those numbers would add up to 100 or close to 100 if there were a lot of multi-racial kids or due to rounding.

I'm the PP who said it was an apples-and-oranges comparison, and you're right, I was wrong about what the HGC numbers represent. Regardless, it's apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

Are you kidding? Lots of people are saying that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in Math by race
Asian 43.8%
Black 6.6%
Hispanic 5.7%
White 29.3%

Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in English by race
Asian 16.2%
Black 2.7%
Hispanic 1.4%
White 11.4%

Percentage of students accepted at HGCs by race, in the year studied in the Metis report
Asian 21.3%
Black 8.9%
Hispanic 10.1%
White 22.3%

I strongly agree with removing some barriers to access such as providing buses to testing and conducting a universal review. I think this will help poor students and those from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of race. It’s the focus on race in the report and by MCPS that bothers me.

From looking at these test scores, you could argue that black and Hispanic students are OVERrepresented in acceptances at elementary magnets.

Or you could argue (because correlation does not equal causation as much as you seem to want it to) that Asians are not very well represented on the eastside of the County - thus, they are just as happy at Wayside or make trade offs, and choose not to take the exam, thus having a lower representation of acceptances. You just don't know, do you? But sure, go ahead and assume that every Asian child who exceeds expectations would want to travel across the county to go to a magnet school and leave their friends, their Immersion program, their cultural studies or what not that you have to give up to spend two hours a day commuting across the county.

[Anonymous]

I'm not actually making that argument, just saying there are many explanations for why black and Hispanic students do not appear at HGCs in as high numbers as some would like.
It's not all about simple "barriers to access" like getting their parents' attention so they can apply.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in Math by race
Asian 43.8%
Black 6.6%
Hispanic 5.7%
White 29.3%

Percentage of students who “exceeded expectations” in English by race
Asian 16.2%
Black 2.7%
Hispanic 1.4%
White 11.4%

Percentage of students accepted at HGCs by race, in the year studied in the Metis report
Asian 21.3%
Black 8.9%
Hispanic 10.1%
White 22.3%

I strongly agree with removing some barriers to access such as providing buses to testing and conducting a universal review. I think this will help poor students and those from disadvantaged backgrounds regardless of race. It’s the focus on race in the report and by MCPS that bothers me.

From looking at these test scores, you could argue that black and Hispanic students are OVERrepresented in acceptances at elementary magnets.

Or you could argue (because correlation does not equal causation as much as you seem to want it to) that Asians are not very well represented on the eastside of the County - thus, they are just as happy at Wayside or make trade offs, and choose not to take the exam, thus having a lower representation of acceptances. You just don't know, do you? But sure, go ahead and assume that every Asian child who exceeds expectations would want to travel across the county to go to a magnet school and leave their friends, their Immersion program, their cultural studies or what not that you have to give up to spend two hours a day commuting across the county.

You don't seem to understand the data. This is percentage of kids who APPLIED, so presumably most people who applied would actually want to make the long journey across the county to a magnet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not actually making that argument, just saying there are many explanations for why black and Hispanic students do not appear at HGCs in as high numbers as some would like.
It's not all about simple "barriers to access" like getting their parents' attention so they can apply.

Of course there are many explanations. Most of them, MCPS can't do anything about. However, MCPS can do something about barriers to access (which are not just limited to getting the students' parents' attention).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you kidding? Lots of people are saying that.

Are any of the people saying that in MCPS? If so, where and when did they say it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It would be foolish to think there aren't black and Hispanic kids who deserve to be in the magnet programs and who would thrive there. I am all for all the things they are doing to find those kids and figure out a way to help them attend the magnets. But it's equally foolish to argue that they should be in the programs in the same percentage that they are represented in the overall school population when every test we have shows that URM students are not performing as well as their white and Asian peers by the time they need to apply to these programs. Maybe they need to start a magnet program that targets exceptionally bright kids as early as K so that they can offset the years of advantages many wealthy white and Asian children have growing up by 3rd when the first magnet applications are done.

That's a straw man. Nobody is saying that.

The whole Metis report is about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not actually making that argument, just saying there are many explanations for why black and Hispanic students do not appear at HGCs in as high numbers as some would like.
It's not all about simple "barriers to access" like getting their parents' attention so they can apply.

Of course there are many explanations. Most of them, MCPS can't do anything about. However, MCPS can do something about barriers to access (which are not just limited to getting the students' parents' attention).

And as others have stated, the best way to remove any barrier to access is to just test ALL 3rd graders, and give the parents the option to opt out. This is the best way, but MCPS didn't do this. They did everything else, though, like shorten the test and remove the median score of acceptance students.

[Anonymous]

Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ah, but no one has mentioned that the families on the west side of the County who are so overly represented sign their kids up for classes in August to prepare for the test. Yep, their third graders, then their fifth graders, and then their eighth graders. They have access because they know about and can afford these classes.

How many actually do this? I know some do, but really, how many out of hundreds of kids who apply? My DC didn't. We are in the RM cluster.