Jews and Germans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

They dropped the A bomb in Japan instead of of Germany.

That's because the war in Germany was over.

Not to mention that Japan attacked us.

That doesn't mean Westerns really care about what's going on in Asia. Look at the atrocities in North Korea. Generations of families have been born, raised, and died in work camps. They are now on their third oppressive leader and we just sit back and relax. Our minds are eased a bit my the humanitarian aid despite the fact that we doubt it has made its way to the people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

They dropped the A bomb in Japan instead of of Germany.

That's because the war in Germany was over.

Not to mention that Japan attacked us.

That doesn't mean Westerns really care about what's going on in Asia. Look at the atrocities in North Korea. Generations of families have been born, raised, and died in work camps. They are now on their third oppressive leader and we just sit back and relax. Our minds are eased a bit my the humanitarian aid despite the fact that we doubt it has made its way to the people.

What should 'we' do, in your opinion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always find it interesting that folks can have a reasonable discussion about the Holocaust, yet get super defensive and combative when slavery is the topic.

Is it because many Jews have been able to do well for themselves despite their history? While AAs have continued to struggle. So history seems to have more affect on the present day SES of descendants of former slaves than Holocaust survivors. Or maybe because the Holocaust happened in a foreign country while slavery happened here.

The jews were not deprived of education and family connections for generations. Can't compare AAs to Jews.

You're right. People have only been trying to kill the Jewish people for the last several milennia. No big deal, right? They weren't put in the original ghettos, they weren't rounded up and killed, they weren't tortured, they weren't run out of their villages... just the Holocaust and that's it.

No one, not even the Jews has a monopoly on suffering. AAs were deprived of education and the fruits of labor was stolen from them for hundreds of years. No one can easily estimate the damage done by actually making it illegal for a group to learn to read and write. Which group is willing to have 1/3 of their people slaughtered? None. Who is willing to go into servitude and have their families ripped apart for the next 400 years with no access to learning? None.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

They dropped the A bomb in Japan instead of of Germany.

That's because the war in Germany was over.

Not to mention that Japan attacked us.

That doesn't mean Westerns really care about what's going on in Asia. Look at the atrocities in North Korea. Generations of families have been born, raised, and died in work camps. They are now on their third oppressive leader and we just sit back and relax. Our minds are eased a bit my the humanitarian aid despite the fact that we doubt it has made its way to the people.

What should 'we' do, in your opinion?

Ignore it and send them food aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

They dropped the A bomb in Japan instead of of Germany.

That's because the war in Germany was over.

Not to mention that Japan attacked us.

That doesn't mean Westerns really care about what's going on in Asia. Look at the atrocities in North Korea. Generations of families have been born, raised, and died in work camps. They are now on their third oppressive leader and we just sit back and relax. Our minds are eased a bit my the humanitarian aid despite the fact that we doubt it has made its way to the people.

What should 'we' do, in your opinion?

Ignore it and send them food aid.

Seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's hypothesis was that there was something different about Germany that made antisemitism flourish there in as murderous way. I don't necessarily agree with this hypothesis, as a lot of historians have criticized his methodology. However, he asks whether one can envision everyday Danes or Italians participating in the Holocaust the way Germans did. The fact that I can't envision that makes me want to do more research on this topic.

I find the Goldhagen stuff pure populism. No woder he wasn't given tenure at Harvard.

Seriously? Ever hear of Mussolini?

Ever read about Italian participation in the Holocaust? I'm guessing it's not what you think it was.

[Anonymous]

How about the Vatican?

How about the United States?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's hypothesis was that there was something different about Germany that made antisemitism flourish there in as murderous way. I don't necessarily agree with this hypothesis, as a lot of historians have criticized his methodology. However, he asks whether one can envision everyday Danes or Italians participating in the Holocaust the way Germans did. The fact that I can't envision that makes me want to do more research on this topic.

I find the Goldhagen stuff pure populism. No woder he wasn't given tenure at Harvard.

Seriously? Ever hear of Mussolini?

Ever read about Italian participation in the Holocaust? I'm guessing it's not what you think it was.

The point was that the Germans thought it up (the process) and did it with such passion and efficiency that it is hard to imagine anyone else doing something like that. But really, there are some other cultures that I could see doing the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

They dropped the A bomb in Japan instead of of Germany.

That's because the war in Germany was over.

Not to mention that Japan attacked us.

That doesn't mean Westerns really care about what's going on in Asia. Look at the atrocities in North Korea. Generations of families have been born, raised, and died in work camps. They are now on their third oppressive leader and we just sit back and relax. Our minds are eased a bit my the humanitarian aid despite the fact that we doubt it has made its way to the people.

What should 'we' do, in your opinion?

Ignore it and send them food aid.

Yeah, there's no way that will go wrong with the bat-shit crazy leadership in that country. Do they even have electricity outside Pyongyang anymore? That is one seriously screwed up nation with the government playing favorites and exercising a degree of control over citizens' personal lives that I don't think exists anywhere else in the planet. And it's a bit bitchy to say westerners don't care what's happening; what do you suggest we do, seriously? No donated food would get to anyone who needed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always find it interesting that folks can have a reasonable discussion about the Holocaust, yet get super defensive and combative when slavery is the topic.

Is it because many Jews have been able to do well for themselves despite their history? While AAs have continued to struggle. So history seems to have more affect on the present day SES of descendants of former slaves than Holocaust survivors. Or maybe because the Holocaust happened in a foreign country while slavery happened here.

The jews were not deprived of education and family connections for generations. Can't compare AAs to Jews.

You're right. People have only been trying to kill the Jewish people for the last several milennia. No big deal, right? They weren't put in the original ghettos, they weren't rounded up and killed, they weren't tortured, they weren't run out of their villages... just the Holocaust and that's it.

No one, not even the Jews has a monopoly on suffering. AAs were deprived of education and the fruits of labor was stolen from them for hundreds of years. No one can easily estimate the damage done by actually making it illegal for a group to learn to read and write. Which group is willing to have 1/3 of their people slaughtered? None. Who is willing to go into servitude and have their families ripped apart for the next 400 years with no access to learning? None.

My point wasn't that anyone has a monopoly on suffering; it was merely that people make it sound like the Holocaust was the sole bad thing that happened to the Jewish people. Granted, I'm no scholar of either Jewish or African/African American history, but the Jewish people have had an unpleasant ride for millennia. I don't know enough about the history of the African continent to remember what all happened there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always find it interesting that folks can have a reasonable discussion about the Holocaust, yet get super defensive and combative when slavery is the topic.

Is it because many Jews have been able to do well for themselves despite their history? While AAs have continued to struggle. So history seems to have more affect on the present day SES of descendants of former slaves than Holocaust survivors. Or maybe because the Holocaust happened in a foreign country while slavery happened here.

The jews were not deprived of education and family connections for generations. Can't compare AAs to Jews.

You're right. People have only been trying to kill the Jewish people for the last several milennia. No big deal, right? They weren't put in the original ghettos, they weren't rounded up and killed, they weren't tortured, they weren't run out of their villages... just the Holocaust and that's it.

No one, not even the Jews has a monopoly on suffering. AAs were deprived of education and the fruits of labor was stolen from them for hundreds of years. No one can easily estimate the damage done by actually making it illegal for a group to learn to read and write. Which group is willing to have 1/3 of their people slaughtered? None. Who is willing to go into servitude and have their families ripped apart for the next 400 years with no access to learning? None.

My point wasn't that anyone has a monopoly on suffering; it was merely that people make it sound like the Holocaust was the sole bad thing that happened to the Jewish people. Granted, I'm no scholar of either Jewish or African/African American history, but the Jewish people have had an unpleasant ride for millennia. I don't know enough about the history of the African continent to remember what all happened there.

Ok, I understand. Being held in bondage was no minor thing. Also, what we forget is that the suffering that the slave trade caused in Africa was tremendous. Lots of tribes had to move to the less hospitable areas to avoid traders. The Africans often deformed their faces to make themselves less attractive to the traders. Some actually volunteered to come to the Americas as indentured servants rather than taken involutarily as a slave. Also, in the process of capturing and moving slaves around, tons of people lost their lives. Some estimate that up to 1/3 died just on the middle passage.
Being a slave was like someone coming and cleaning out your entire account and just taking everything. Like you never worked for anything. All your past and future earnings, gone.
Also, you know how people feel sorry for people who have their kids taken away? You know the drama on TV with the adoptive mother losing a kid or a parent being called unfit and the parent runs out screaming as they take the child away? Well slaves experienced that MOST of the time with their kids!
Also, do you hate your boss? Could you imagine having to have sex with him? Or better yet, he comes over and asks for your 12 year old daughter (or son).
Think about it....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The point was that the Germans thought it up (the process) and did it with such passion and efficiency that it is hard to imagine anyone else doing something like that. But really, there are some other cultures that I could see doing the same thing.

I guess it's "the Germans" where the populism comes in. Parts of the Nazi bureaucracy thought up the "final solution" and executed it, finding enough willing executioners along the way. But at the same time it tried hard to conceal the kiling camps from the rest of the world (i.e, SS guardsmen in killing camps were threatened by execution themselves if they talked about what they were doing). They were so succesful that the victims arriving in the killing camps did typically not realize what was happening until the gas was switched on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My point wasn't that anyone has a monopoly on suffering; it was merely that people make it sound like the Holocaust was the sole bad thing that happened to the Jewish people. Granted, I'm no scholar of either Jewish or African/African American history, but the Jewish people have had an unpleasant ride for millennia. I don't know enough about the history of the African continent to remember what all happened there.

Ok, I understand. Being held in bondage was no minor thing. Also, what we forget is that the suffering that the slave trade caused in Africa was tremendous. Lots of tribes had to move to the less hospitable areas to avoid traders. The Africans often deformed their faces to make themselves less attractive to the traders. Some actually volunteered to come to the Americas as indentured servants rather than taken involutarily as a slave. Also, in the process of capturing and moving slaves around, tons of people lost their lives. Some estimate that up to 1/3 died just on the middle passage.
Being a slave was like someone coming and cleaning out your entire account and just taking everything. Like you never worked for anything. All your past and future earnings, gone.
Also, you know how people feel sorry for people who have their kids taken away? You know the drama on TV with the adoptive mother losing a kid or a parent being called unfit and the parent runs out screaming as they take the child away? Well slaves experienced that MOST of the time with their kids!
Also, do you hate your boss? Could you imagine having to have sex with him? Or better yet, he comes over and asks for your 12 year old daughter (or son).
Think about it....

In all fairness, the PP did not contest any of this. It's without question that the slave trade and slavery were a gigantic injustice.

One particular sad aspect of the slave trade is that it were often local African rulers who sold their kin into slavery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's hypothesis was that there was something different about Germany that made antisemitism flourish there in as murderous way. I don't necessarily agree with this hypothesis, as a lot of historians have criticized his methodology. However, he asks whether one can envision everyday Danes or Italians participating in the Holocaust the way Germans did. The fact that I can't envision that makes me want to do more research on this topic.

I find the Goldhagen stuff pure populism. No woder he wasn't given tenure at Harvard.

Seriously? Ever hear of Mussolini?

Ever read about Italian participation in the Holocaust? I'm guessing it's not what you think it was.

The point was that the Germans thought it up (the process) and did it with such passion and efficiency that it is hard to imagine anyone else doing something like that. But really, there are some other cultures that I could see doing the same thing.

?????

This is such a weird statement to me.

Genocide and mass murder have been repeated over and over again. You don't even have to go outside the middle of the 20th century to find crimes as bad as teh Holocaust. Stalin's policy murder 20 to 60 million people. During WWII, the Japanese murdered at least 5 million civilians and estimates have ranged as high as 30 million civilians.

You don't need to imagine other cultures doing it. You just need to read history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always find it interesting that folks can have a reasonable discussion about the Holocaust, yet get super defensive and combative when slavery is the topic.

Is it because many Jews have been able to do well for themselves despite their history? While AAs have continued to struggle. So history seems to have more affect on the present day SES of descendants of former slaves than Holocaust survivors. Or maybe because the Holocaust happened in a foreign country while slavery happened here.

The jews were not deprived of education and family connections for generations. Can't compare AAs to Jews.

You're right. People have only been trying to kill the Jewish people for the last several milennia. No big deal, right? They weren't put in the original ghettos, they weren't rounded up and killed, they weren't tortured, they weren't run out of their villages... just the Holocaust and that's it.

No one, not even the Jews has a monopoly on suffering. AAs were deprived of education and the fruits of labor was stolen from them for hundreds of years. No one can easily estimate the damage done by actually making it illegal for a group to learn to read and write. Which group is willing to have 1/3 of their people slaughtered? None. Who is willing to go into servitude and have their families ripped apart for the next 400 years with no access to learning? None.

My point wasn't that anyone has a monopoly on suffering; it was merely that people make it sound like the Holocaust was the sole bad thing that happened to the Jewish people. Granted, I'm no scholar of either Jewish or African/African American history, but the Jewish people have had an unpleasant ride for millennia. I don't know enough about the history of the African continent to remember what all happened there.

Ok, I understand. Being held in bondage was no minor thing. Also, what we forget is that the suffering that the slave trade caused in Africa was tremendous. Lots of tribes had to move to the less hospitable areas to avoid traders. The Africans often deformed their faces to make themselves less attractive to the traders. Some actually volunteered to come to the Americas as indentured servants rather than taken involutarily as a slave. Also, in the process of capturing and moving slaves around, tons of people lost their lives. Some estimate that up to 1/3 died just on the middle passage.
Being a slave was like someone coming and cleaning out your entire account and just taking everything. Like you never worked for anything. All your past and future earnings, gone.
Also, you know how people feel sorry for people who have their kids taken away? You know the drama on TV with the adoptive mother losing a kid or a parent being called unfit and the parent runs out screaming as they take the child away? Well slaves experienced that MOST of the time with their kids!
Also, do you hate your boss? Could you imagine having to have sex with him? Or better yet, he comes over and asks for your 12 year old daughter (or son).
Think about it....

If you look just at the deaths caused by the transport of slaves from Africa to the US, many on on American ships crewed by American crews, the estimates range from 2 million to 4 million deaths. Deaths in the Middle Passage were expected. The slave crews packed as many bodies on to the ship as possible, knowing that many would die before reaching the US.