Anonymous wrote:I grew up in a NoVa suburb and went to what I guess was sort of a competitive high school, at least at the time. It wasn’t the academic competition that was an issue, nor even the status symbol brands, it was the extreme homogeneity of everything. When you grow up surrounded by people who are exactly like you, your point of view is extremely narrow, despite parents throwing their high incomes at experiences and cultural enrichment and thinking their kids are quite worldly.
I didn’t become aware of this until i went to college and broke out of that bubble. People from less competitive areas seemed far more interesting and real. My kids are now being raised in a small city surrounded by much more economic and racial diversity. Their school has a much lower rating than mine did, but they seem to have a much more realistic sense of themselves in the world that I think will serve them well in the future.
Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.
You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.
Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.
I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.
I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.
Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.
I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.
And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.
LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.
Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.
Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.
What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…
Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.
So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?
I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.
Is there a point in there somewhere?
DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.
After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.
So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.
We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.
I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.
Way to miss the point.
No. She does not miss the point.
If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.
If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.
There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.
If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.
You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.
No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.
If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.
Of course you can afford $120 leggings on 300k.
My parents never bought anything for themselves and still don’t. They earned way less than 300k and still tried to buy my brother and me nice things. My brother and I got jobs as soon as we were able to and learned the value of money.
We earn more now but we used to have a 300k income. We were able to live just fine, pay for a FT nanny, preschool and still manage to buy nice clothes for myself and our kids. I bought myself professional clothes and also lululemon. I would have bought my daughter pants if she really wanted them.
You are just money stupid.
Of course people can afford $120 leggings on 300K. However it does not end with 1 pair of Lulus, or just with leggings, it then morphs into Invisalign vs normal braces, etc etc. And all this for a kid who hasn't stopped growing.
Our HHI is multiple times 300k now so we are doing something right. I have a kid with Invisalign, retirement and college fully funded.
The pp said they couldn’t buy Lululemon on 300k for their kid. I don’t know when lululemon became a status symbol.
It's a status symbol for people making 300k and pretending they can afford it. It's not a status symbol for people making millions a year.
Let me break some math to you - yes, you can afford 120 leggings on 300k income. In fact you can buy a pair every month without noticing. And you can absolutely say "yes" to whatever leggings one day and "no" to a different item the next day. Just because you bought the leggings doesn't mean you need buy everything your child asks for till the rest of their lives.
This thread is about expectations of these expensive items, so we are not discussing once in a while purchases. These kids expect to dress like this most of the time, and they expect similarly expensive purchases for cars, shoes, coffee, vacations, etc. It's not possible for families living on 300k income unless they are financially irresponsible. It's not unreasonable for families making triple or quadruple that income.
The author of The Millionaire Next Door talks about exactly this. If you live in an expensive neighborhood the expectation is that you will have certain consumption patterns in order to fit in. That’s why he recommends not living in the expensive neighborhood. We lived in a Vienna neighborhood we could barely afford when we were a young military family and we used to joke about how it was “the worlds most expensive public school” because all of a sudden our kids got invited to birthday parties where the expectation was a twenty dollar gift vs a five dollar gift, and one school field trip to the Baltimore aquarium was sixty bucks per child and the Girl Scouts went to the great wolf lodge rather than camping and the PTA sent home a flyer asking if anyone wanted to donate Redskins tickets for the silent auction. We couldn’t hang and didn’t want to. We moved to Virginia Beach and appreciate the more laid back expectations socially. Our kids went to the beach with their friends and everyone did just fine in terms of college and it’s nice to see the ocean on a regular basis.
This is why we want to move from this area. Right now we are the people who resolutely refuse to buy into a lot of the consumption-- birthday parties at home with homemade cupcakes, we buy practical cars and drive them until they die, same with electronics, public school, etc. But doing this means we're rebelling against the status quo. It gets tiresome. I want to raise my kids somewhere where people share more if our values and preferences do I don't have to always feel like I'm going against the grain, and my kids don't always feel like the idd ones out because "everyone" is spending money on something we feel is a waste.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.
Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.
Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.
You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.
Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.
I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.
I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.
Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.
I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.
And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.
LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.
Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.
Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.
What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…
Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.
So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?
I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.
Is there a point in there somewhere?
DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.
After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.
So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.
We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.
I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.
Way to miss the point.
No. She does not miss the point.
If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.
If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.
There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.
If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.
You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.
No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.
If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.
Of course you can afford $120 leggings on 300k.
My parents never bought anything for themselves and still don’t. They earned way less than 300k and still tried to buy my brother and me nice things. My brother and I got jobs as soon as we were able to and learned the value of money.
We earn more now but we used to have a 300k income. We were able to live just fine, pay for a FT nanny, preschool and still manage to buy nice clothes for myself and our kids. I bought myself professional clothes and also lululemon. I would have bought my daughter pants if she really wanted them.
You are just money stupid.
Of course people can afford $120 leggings on 300K. However it does not end with 1 pair of Lulus, or just with leggings, it then morphs into Invisalign vs normal braces, etc etc. And all this for a kid who hasn't stopped growing.
Our HHI is multiple times 300k now so we are doing something right. I have a kid with Invisalign, retirement and college fully funded.
The pp said they couldn’t buy Lululemon on 300k for their kid. I don’t know when lululemon became a status symbol.
It's a status symbol for people making 300k and pretending they can afford it. It's not a status symbol for people making millions a year.
Let me break some math to you - yes, you can afford 120 leggings on 300k income. In fact you can buy a pair every month without noticing. And you can absolutely say "yes" to whatever leggings one day and "no" to a different item the next day. Just because you bought the leggings doesn't mean you need buy everything your child asks for till the rest of their lives.
This thread is about expectations of these expensive items, so we are not discussing once in a while purchases. These kids expect to dress like this most of the time, and they expect similarly expensive purchases for cars, shoes, coffee, vacations, etc. It's not possible for families living on 300k income unless they are financially irresponsible. It's not unreasonable for families making triple or quadruple that income.
The author of The Millionaire Next Door talks about exactly this. If you live in an expensive neighborhood the expectation is that you will have certain consumption patterns in order to fit in. That’s why he recommends not living in the expensive neighborhood. We lived in a Vienna neighborhood we could barely afford when we were a young military family and we used to joke about how it was “the worlds most expensive public school” because all of a sudden our kids got invited to birthday parties where the expectation was a twenty dollar gift vs a five dollar gift, and one school field trip to the Baltimore aquarium was sixty bucks per child and the Girl Scouts went to the great wolf lodge rather than camping and the PTA sent home a flyer asking if anyone wanted to donate Redskins tickets for the silent auction. We couldn’t hang and didn’t want to. We moved to Virginia Beach and appreciate the more laid back expectations socially. Our kids went to the beach with their friends and everyone did just fine in terms of college and it’s nice to see the ocean on a regular basis.
This is why we want to move from this area. Right now we are the people who resolutely refuse to buy into a lot of the consumption-- birthday parties at home with homemade cupcakes, we buy practical cars and drive them until they die, same with electronics, public school, etc. But doing this means we're rebelling against the status quo. It gets tiresome. I want to raise my kids somewhere where people share more if our values and preferences do I don't have to always feel like I'm going against the grain, and my kids don't always feel like the idd ones out because "everyone" is spending money on something we feel is a waste.
People celebrate birthdays in different ways. Many people drive modest cars.
I have a friend who grew up poor. It seems like she was totally neglected. Her mom put her down her whole life and it doesn’t sound like she had a happy family life or childhood. I also grew up poor. I was a free lunch kid. My mom loved and told me to study hard. She encouraged me and told me I was smart. My mom baked a cake for me on my birthday and invited the neighbors to come to our home. There were no favors or entertainment, just the cake my mom baked. I never got anything throughout the year except for on my birthday and on Christmas. It was a modest gift that pp would probably approve of since that is all my parents could afford.
My friend whose parents didn’t celebrate her has this negative reaction to birthday parties. She doesn’t want her kids to think their birthdays are a big deal. She doesn’t throw parties for them. She gives them very minimal gifts. She judges and always talks bad about others and their lavish parties and lifestyle. Honestly she sounds like a total grinch!
I love birthdays. My kids look forward to Christmas and their birthdays. We celebrate with grandparents and family. We celebrate with their friends. We celebrate on their actual birthday and their party that they help plan.
I am often the friend who remembers my friends’ birthdays. I take them out to have dinner. I used to organize friend dinners and still do. I was the poor kid who eventually got a job in high school. Celebrations were modest. In high school, my fellow poor friends may have written a birthday note. Sometimes we would get one another a cupcake or a balloon.
I was spoiled with love. There was no shortage of it. I still feel how much my parents love me and their grandchildren. My kids are my everything. It has nothing to do with money or where we live. Your values and lifestyle are what you make of it.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.
Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.
You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.
Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.
You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.
Have you ever met an Indian? They are also very family and achievement oriented.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.
Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.
You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.
Have you ever met an Indian? They are also very family and achievement oriented.
Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.
You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.
Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.
I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.
I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.
Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.
I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.
And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.
LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.
Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.
Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.
What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…
Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.
So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?
I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.
Is there a point in there somewhere?
DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.
After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.
So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.
We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.
I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.
Way to miss the point.
No. She does not miss the point.
If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.
If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.
There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.
If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.
You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.
No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.
If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.
Of course you can afford $120 leggings on 300k.
My parents never bought anything for themselves and still don’t. They earned way less than 300k and still tried to buy my brother and me nice things. My brother and I got jobs as soon as we were able to and learned the value of money.
We earn more now but we used to have a 300k income. We were able to live just fine, pay for a FT nanny, preschool and still manage to buy nice clothes for myself and our kids. I bought myself professional clothes and also lululemon. I would have bought my daughter pants if she really wanted them.
You are just money stupid.
Of course people can afford $120 leggings on 300K. However it does not end with 1 pair of Lulus, or just with leggings, it then morphs into Invisalign vs normal braces, etc etc. And all this for a kid who hasn't stopped growing.
Our HHI is multiple times 300k now so we are doing something right. I have a kid with Invisalign, retirement and college fully funded.
The pp said they couldn’t buy Lululemon on 300k for their kid. I don’t know when lululemon became a status symbol.
It's a status symbol for people making 300k and pretending they can afford it. It's not a status symbol for people making millions a year.
Let me break some math to you - yes, you can afford 120 leggings on 300k income. In fact you can buy a pair every month without noticing. And you can absolutely say "yes" to whatever leggings one day and "no" to a different item the next day. Just because you bought the leggings doesn't mean you need buy everything your child asks for till the rest of their lives.
This thread is about expectations of these expensive items, so we are not discussing once in a while purchases. These kids expect to dress like this most of the time, and they expect similarly expensive purchases for cars, shoes, coffee, vacations, etc. It's not possible for families living on 300k income unless they are financially irresponsible. It's not unreasonable for families making triple or quadruple that income.
Many lower income people value those luxury items more than rich folks. While rich people can easily afford lululemon or much higher priced luxury items, a poor or middle class person cannot afford that item so they want it more. They don’t have to live in a UMC neighborhood to want expensive things.
The most materialistic people I know were poor growing up while the least materialistic people I know were the ones who are very rich and can buy anything they want.
I used to want so much as a poor kid. Now we have so much that I want for nothing. I don’t value these items at all. I just want health and happiness for my family.
We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?
or think of yourself as a low achiever even though you are doing your best.
This. Growing up in an environment where "achievement" is most valued (as opposed to family, personal fulfillment, balance, happiness, charity) breeds insecurity. If what matters most is winning, most people will be failures.
Whereas if what matters most is creating a fulfilling and meaningful life, thus is possible for anyone, and there is also no time limit.
You can value achievement and still value family and happiness even more. For a good example, look at Nigerian American families and see how close they are to their families and how supportive they are of their families. Then take a look at how proud they are of their educational, professional and other achievements.
Have you ever met an Indian? They are also very family and achievement oriented.
Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.
You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.
Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.
I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.
I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.
Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.
I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.
And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.
LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.
Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.
Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.
What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…
Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.
So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?
I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.
Is there a point in there somewhere?
DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.
After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.
So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.
We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.
I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.
Way to miss the point.
No. She does not miss the point.
If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.
If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.
There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.
If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.
You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.
No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.
If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.
Of course you can afford $120 leggings on 300k.
My parents never bought anything for themselves and still don’t. They earned way less than 300k and still tried to buy my brother and me nice things. My brother and I got jobs as soon as we were able to and learned the value of money.
We earn more now but we used to have a 300k income. We were able to live just fine, pay for a FT nanny, preschool and still manage to buy nice clothes for myself and our kids. I bought myself professional clothes and also lululemon. I would have bought my daughter pants if she really wanted them.
You are just money stupid.
Of course people can afford $120 leggings on 300K. However it does not end with 1 pair of Lulus, or just with leggings, it then morphs into Invisalign vs normal braces, etc etc. And all this for a kid who hasn't stopped growing.
Our HHI is multiple times 300k now so we are doing something right. I have a kid with Invisalign, retirement and college fully funded.
The pp said they couldn’t buy Lululemon on 300k for their kid. I don’t know when lululemon became a status symbol.
It's a status symbol for people making 300k and pretending they can afford it. It's not a status symbol for people making millions a year.
Let me break some math to you - yes, you can afford 120 leggings on 300k income. In fact you can buy a pair every month without noticing. And you can absolutely say "yes" to whatever leggings one day and "no" to a different item the next day. Just because you bought the leggings doesn't mean you need buy everything your child asks for till the rest of their lives.
This thread is about expectations of these expensive items, so we are not discussing once in a while purchases. These kids expect to dress like this most of the time, and they expect similarly expensive purchases for cars, shoes, coffee, vacations, etc. It's not possible for families living on 300k income unless they are financially irresponsible. It's not unreasonable for families making triple or quadruple that income.
Many lower income people value those luxury items more than rich folks. While rich people can easily afford lululemon or much higher priced luxury items, a poor or middle class person cannot afford that item so they want it more. They don’t have to live in a UMC neighborhood to want expensive things.
The most materialistic people I know were poor growing up while the least materialistic people I know were the ones who are very rich and can buy anything they want.
I used to want so much as a poor kid. Now we have so much that I want for nothing. I don’t value these items at all. I just want health and happiness for my family.
It's all relative.
My teenage cousins have never heard of Lulumon or North face. None of their friends wear them. Their median HHI income in their neighborhood is probably around 150K.
When you live close to rich people who can easily afford them, you get exposed to those expectations. If you are making 300k while most of your neighbors are making a million dollars, you are poor in that neighborhood. So it makes sense that your kids would be exposed to these things and want them.
Anonymous wrote:We are currently raising our kids in a very competitive UMC community. There’s some racial diversity but next to no socioeconomic diversity. Top 1 percent ranked public school in the national, starting price for a modest house is 1.5-2n… it’s very much a bubble. Kids are extremely involved in extracurriculars across the board and it’s a very strong community. In many ways we are happy with it but I also have this nagging feeling maybe it’s not the answer for my family and my kids. I grew up in a small middle class town where everyone made the team in HS and college was expected but community college was okay too. It wasn’t a pressure cooker environment. We were just kids and had a lot of leisure time. I went on to private school in college and experienced the uber wealthy and those from much lower incomes in my social circle as well as a lot of diversity. I think I personally benefitted from it and do well with all kinds of people. We own a second home in a rural area. My kids are 6,8 and 9. I’m considering moving there where it’s a much simpler lifestyle and not so competitive. I would love to hear what people have to say about their own experiences.
But this is an UMC experience (private school). Or are you talking about the first part of your childhood as being more simple/less representative of the UMC lifestyle? Maybe this is already in the thread, but I'm curious about how/why you transitioned to a more competitive UMC lifestyle/community. Imho it's easy to idealize childhood experiences but it's no accident you have ended up where you are.
On a different note, I sense that some really thrive on defining themselves through being better than others (the competitive aspect) because they enjoy that and it can be easy to see where you rank (and for others to see it). I am in higher ed and would, for example, love for my child to do well, be curious, creative and intelligent, and accomplish things of value to society. There's some status associated with such a path but it's less "rankable" than going to top school, achieving high status career, earning $$ dollars, etc.
I don't think there's a right answer--it's more about what your values are and what makes you/your family happy.
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