Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

I read (maybe in this very same thread) that it will only apply to FAFSA colleges, not to CSS schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe I missed someone else posting this, but it is about to get WORSE for donut hole families who have two kids close in age! Quietly how financial aid is calculated for people who have two kids in college has changed. Instead of factoring in having to pay tuition for multiple kids now financial aid is no calculating this.

By this it used to be that let's say you earn 150000 and the EFC says you can contribute 60,000. It used to be that if you had two kids then you paid 30K per kid. Or if you had three kids in college you were expected to contribute 20K per year. Now you are expected to contribute 60K no matter how many other college tuitions you are paying. So if you have two kids you would pay 120,000 which is ridiculous for a family making 150,000.

You should consider that when you decide the number of kids you have. Life is about choices. Saving is a choice, the house and expenses you have are choices, and the number of kids you have are choices.

[Anonymous]

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Our earnings would be lower elsewhere. It is also not realistic to think we could just move somewhere else and find employment. You seem to think this income implies a luxury lifestyle in NYC - we live in an outer borough, commute an hour to work in public transport, and send our kids to NYC public schools. Some people live in NY because they come from NY. I think you are very invested in the narrative that all donut hole families are whiners or have done something wrong. This makes you seem very self-righteous.

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If we earn 225k in NYC, do you really think that we can save enough for private college by skipping luxury cars? We don't even have a frigging car! Maybe if we lived in Nebraska.

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Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

That's not true. College costs have increased so much families can't hope to deny themselves every luxury to meet that cost. We're fortunate that we can afford any college, but most people can't, even if they tighten their belt.

Please don't be so ignorant and smug.

Once again, you choose to live in NYC. I know it's expensive and $225K isn't much there. But that is a choice you make. You could job search and move to somewhere with a lower COL (literally anywhere except SF/Boston would be less)

I don't live where I grew up. I choose to move elsewhere. I know how expensive NYC is---it's ridiculous. However, the fact is you still choose to stay there. That's a choice you made and that means you have to adjust to live with the choices. However, you live in NY state, where there are how many SUNY schools? All very affordable schools, most ~ $25K, all in. So if anything, you have more good instate schools to choose from than any other state. Kid gets a job and earns $10K/year to contribute to college, takes $5.5K federal loans, and parents contribute $10-15K per year. An affordable way to do college with minimal debt. You could even do it for less by choosing a school that you commute to from home, if that's what fits your family finances.

Our kids WILL go to SUNY schools and I'm not complaining about being donut hole. I'm objecting to being criticized for not having the savings to pay 80k/ year for college! I would love to know where YOU fall in this spectrum. Are you rich and criticizing people who have less than you? Poor and criticizing people who have more? Or donut hole yourself and judging everyone who doesn't do things exactly the way you do? Something tells me it's the latter... Ding Ding!!!!!

“Ding Ding!!!!!” How old are you? You don’t seem mature enough to have children.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

THAT WAS ME!!

And I have heard privileged douches my whole life make assumptions about someone's incorrect assumptions about people's intelligence when they find out where they went to college. My neighborhood is filled with these legacy Ivy types that thumb their noses at the state school kids.

I worked full=time every summer and had a part-time job all through high school and undergrad. My full financial needs=based friends didn't' have to work.

It was me too. And my problem with the so-called donut hole family is that you are all upholding the same myth that the best job applicants come from the best schools. That cultural assumption needs to change.

How heavily does your employer recruit at Salisbury State and Frostburg State vs. higher ranked schools?

They don’t hire new grads but obviously they hired me, from Ho Hum State.

Where did u go? 3rd tier state school?

A Big 10.

So even your job doesn’t hire 3rd tier.

I don’t know I don’t work in HR. Do you?

Yes. I’ve worked in HR.

Then why don’t you go become an evangelist for the economic reality that great students go to affordable schools, even if they aren’t ranked well? Go write an op-ed.

And there’s that ho hum education you have showing it’s weaker side.

Oh dear. You should probably use the correct form of “its” when you attempt to snark about someone else’s education.

(and no, Autocorrect doesn’t change correctly spelled words, so don’t bother)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Because only in the US do people feel entitled to the tippy top ranked universities for their kids, no matter what.
Most of Europe is not attending Cambridge or Oxford for undergrad. They are attending a nearby local university. Their kid was "tracked for college" sometime around 12/13 yo and if they do well on the testing that day, they may not be eligible for a STEM major 5 years later. Nobody is saying you can't get an education. We literally have hundreds of great choices, many offering merit. There are ways to attend college for minimal costs, you just wont attend a Top tier university. Just like much of Europe does not attend a Top tier university for their undergrad.

Wait a sec here. Most of the UK doesn't go to Oxbridge because they can't get in, not because they can't pay! We are talking about getting in to schools you can't pay for. In France for example, if you get into Polytechnique (the top engineering school), your tuition bill can be covered by military service following your studies, or in most cases, your first employer pays off your bill as part of the job offer. You rarely hear about someone in France qualifying for one of these schools and not going because they can't afford it.

The bolded is true in the US too. That's what ROTC is.

As a spouse of retired Enlisted, there is no way I'd let my kids do ROTC or anything else military related in college. They go to state schools that we can afford to pay for and if they want military afterward, they can go in as an Officer not oweing anything.

Donut Families can afford state schools. They can afford a lot more if they budgeted right. If you choose to pay for expensive housing, etc. that is your choice but then don't complain you cannot afford college. We live in a sh@t shack that is in a "lesser" neighborhood so we can afford college. No one cares where your kids go to high school. In all reality for many professions now, they don't care if you go to a private or public. The degree is what is important.

It’s easier for donut families to afford state schools in certain states more than others, because not all state systems are funded equally or give out appreciable scholarships/need based aid. MD and VA are actually pretty expensive as state schools go. I was shocked by how little my FL cousins, who were above average students but not valedictorian or anything, had to pay to attend the public universities there. Say what you will about FL but they do a better job on the college affordability front.

UMD is not that expensive. Not sure about VA, but MD is $10K without room and board. So, yes, it was easy for us to save when we did it at birth and put our priority into college savings vs. an expensive house or vacations or other things.

Most people can’t afford an expensive house, fancy vacations, or 4 years of college…..it’s not either/or, it’s none of the above. Some of you are so out of touch it’s scary.

The people who can’t afford those things aren’t the ones screaming OMG WE’RE IN THE DONUT HOLE on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

I thought it was “hundreds” of options? Now you’re talking thousands? Care to share a list of say, a 100 or so of these options within an 8hr drive? Since there are apparently so many! TIA!

It doesn’t need to be within an 8 hour drive. Suck it up. YW!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K. It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

Silly teachers, nurses, fire fighters, etc choosing to live in expensive areas. They should all just commute a couple hours.

I’ll bet significant money that PP isn’t any of those things (she’ll probably lie now, because anonymous message board, but whatever). And BTW, she claims she couldn’t make enough money living elsewhere (because apparently she doesn’t understand cost of living) and teachers, nurses and firefighters can make decent money in many cities throughout the country without the COL of NYC.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K.[b] It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

Most people live where they can get jobs and/or close to their family.

NYC is not the only place to get jobs. And not everyone gets to continue to live close to family in an insanely expensive area just because they super duper want to.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

I actually think this is decent advice in general, but some of us are only buying the $25k car (or less!) because that’s what we can afford to begin with, so there bo magical $35k savings from the purchase?

If lots folks are really spending $7k per year on Starbucks, ok fine. I don’t know anyone like that. I probably get coffee out 1-2x per month, and mostly from a local shop, so that’s maybe $100 annually to cut.

Our decisions are a bit more like, do we really need swim lessons during the school year? Does the roof really need to be replaced now?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K. It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

Silly teachers, nurses, fire fighters, etc choosing to live in expensive areas. They should all just commute a couple hours.

That’s the thing - people like the PP belittle lower earners for “choosing” to live here, but as a society we cannot function if they did not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah. I don’t get any money on the college calculator. We are career feds. No Starbucks. No hair and nails (other than a $59 cut 3x a year). Cars are over 10 years old. No fancy vacas. I think it’s crazy that anyone expects us to be able to pay $80,000/year for college. I’m not begrudging the aid for those who make less. And I do have the option of working til I’m 75 to pay it off (that someone with less money doesn’t have). But boy, the list price is nuts. My parents were able to pay for the priciest private college on modest MC salaries without aid and not be in debt forever. I can’t.

This. Exactly this. We're in the same boat and feel the same way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe I missed someone else posting this, but it is about to get WORSE for donut hole families who have two kids close in age! Quietly how financial aid is calculated for people who have two kids in college has changed. Instead of factoring in having to pay tuition for multiple kids now financial aid is no calculating this.

By this it used to be that let's say you earn 150000 and the EFC says you can contribute 60,000. It used to be that if you had two kids then you paid 30K per kid. Or if you had three kids in college you were expected to contribute 20K per year. Now you are expected to contribute 60K no matter how many other college tuitions you are paying. So if you have two kids you would pay 120,000 which is ridiculous for a family making 150,000.

This is actually going to matter less for donut hole parents that it will for parents with an EFC of 6-12k. Your EFC number only really matters if you are eligible for a PELL grant (and subsidized loans) Given your example of a 60,000 EFC, you’d need to have 10 kids in school all at the same time. CSS is continuing to divide the expected number by the number of kids in school. A donut hole family will never qualify for a Pell grant or subsidized loans.

It will look terrible on paper, but non CSS schools bring down the cost by “merit” and make up the difference with telling parents to get Parent plus loans.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

I actually think this is decent advice in general, but some of us are only buying the $25k car (or less!) because that’s what we can afford to begin with, so there bo magical $35k savings from the purchase?

If lots folks are really spending $7k per year on Starbucks, ok fine. I don’t know anyone like that. I probably get coffee out 1-2x per month, and mostly from a local shop, so that’s maybe $100 annually to cut.

Our decisions are a bit more like, do we really need swim lessons during the school year? Does the roof really need to be replaced now?

This. Same position. We maybe get a couple of holiday starbucks in December. One of our cars is over 10 years old and has 200K miles on it. We are in our home that we bought over 20 years ago and never "upgraded." Our expenses are more mundane as the other poster notes. And, no, we are not able to save $50-$80K/year for college. Just because some anonymous person on here thinks I should live in a way that forces to put every cent to college savings doesn't mean I can or should have to.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

A lot of the replies here seem to be UMC/wealthy folks disparaging people who have different life circumstances and make less money. All it's all about "choices" for them. We are like you--and I bet most "donut hole" families are in the same boat. We drive old cars, have a modest home, definitely no fancy vacations. And no we are not looking to have our kids go to fancy private colleges. In-state for us. It's like the boomers who tell people to stop drinking lattes to afford XYZ. Instead of looking at stagnant wages, skyrocketing college costs, inflation....no let's make assumptions about everyone's spending habits. And the oh just move to LCOL area is so tone deaf. If only rich people live in HCOL areas-who is going to mown your lawn? educate your kids? be your admin assistant? take care of your family in the hospital?

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

I actually think this is decent advice in general, but some of us are only buying the $25k car (or less!) because that’s what we can afford to begin with, so there bo magical $35k savings from the purchase?

If lots folks are really spending $7k per year on Starbucks, ok fine. I don’t know anyone like that. I probably get coffee out 1-2x per month, and mostly from a local shop, so that’s maybe $100 annually to cut.

Our decisions are a bit more like, do we really need swim lessons during the school year? Does the roof really need to be replaced now?

This. Same position. We maybe get a couple of holiday starbucks in December. One of our cars is over 10 years old and has 200K miles on it. We are in our home that we bought over 20 years ago and never "upgraded." Our expenses are more mundane as the other poster notes. And, no, we are not able to save $50-$80K/year for college. Just because some anonymous person on here thinks I should live in a way that forces to put every cent to college savings doesn't mean I can or should have to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

I actually think this is decent advice in general, but some of us are only buying the $25k car (or less!) because that’s what we can afford to begin with, so there bo magical $35k savings from the purchase?

If lots folks are really spending $7k per year on Starbucks, ok fine. I don’t know anyone like that. I probably get coffee out 1-2x per month, and mostly from a local shop, so that’s maybe $100 annually to cut.

Our decisions are a bit more like, do we really need swim lessons during the school year? Does the roof really need to be replaced now?

This. Same position. We maybe get a couple of holiday starbucks in December. One of our cars is over 10 years old and has 200K miles on it. We are in our home that we bought over 20 years ago and never "upgraded." Our expenses are more mundane as the other poster notes. And, no, we are not able to save $50-$80K/year for college. Just because some anonymous person on here thinks I should live in a way that forces to put every cent to college savings doesn't mean I can or should have to.

A lot of the replies here seem to be UMC/wealthy folks disparaging people who have different life circumstances and make less money. All it's all about "choices" for them. We are like you--and I bet most "donut hole" families are in the same boat. We drive old cars, have a modest home, definitely no fancy vacations. And no we are not looking to have our kids go to fancy private colleges. In-state for us. It's like the boomers who tell people to stop drinking lattes to afford XYZ. Instead of looking at stagnant wages, skyrocketing college costs, inflation....no let's make assumptions about everyone's spending habits. And the oh just move to LCOL area is so tone deaf. If only rich people live in HCOL areas-who is going to mown your lawn? educate your kids? be your admin assistant? take care of your family in the hospital?