Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

You cannot compare the cost of college now to previous generations. In state in VA could mean saving 130k or so per kid. All this bickering and the issue is that college prices are insane. It used to be subsidized more by the state so that in state meant savings. This is not necessarily the case anymore. But instead of focusing on this, people like to create this class conflict.

[Anonymous]

Yeah. I don’t get any money on the college calculator. We are career feds. No Starbucks. No hair and nails (other than a $59 cut 3x a year). Cars are over 10 years old. No fancy vacas. I think it’s crazy that anyone expects us to be able to pay $80,000/year for college. I’m not begrudging the aid for those who make less. And I do have the option of working til I’m 75 to pay it off (that someone with less money doesn’t have). But boy, the list price is nuts. My parents were able to pay for the priciest private college on modest MC salaries without aid and not be in debt forever. I can’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

I think it is a combination of things. There is a general idea that as a parent you can’t provide/have the same security your parents did even doing all the right things. You don’t work for the same company for 30 years and have a guaranteed pension. Now you have to be a savvy investor and put away money in 401K and hope to retire at 60- both are skills/mindset that your own parents might not have passed on to their kids. Even with saving for your kid’s college, I will tell you my parents didn’t save for college and you can’t assume even at non-DCUM middle class across the US that a family has saved for college. I agree with the poster that said the reality for many today is living at home and going to the state college or starting off at community college because even the 25-40K per year per child with room and board isn’t realistic for everyone.

So to say, hey simply by not going to Starbucks and driving a 10 year old car you can save $650,000 to send two kids to any private college while living in a high cost of living area while fully funding their retirement - BFFR. Can people do this from straight saving - without being a good investor (whether real estate or stock/bonds/) without any inheritance/help from family, and potentially having financial setbacks (unemployment, divorce , health issues, special needs with kids) -maybe. But it’s crazy to pretend it’s obvious and easy - especially when someone doesn’t come from a background where that was expected and done. So my kids are not applying to a top 25 and they are looking at in-state public and out of state public and I’m fine with that. I like the donut hole discussions because then you know at what income level that you aren’t likely getting aid so you aren’t surprised and can plan accordingly when looking at colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

You cannot compare the cost of college now to previous generations. In state in VA could mean saving 130k or so per kid. All this bickering and the issue is that college prices are insane. It used to be subsidized more by the state so that in state meant savings. This is not necessarily the case anymore. But instead of focusing on this, people like to create this class conflict.

Many of us donut hole families were poor when we started our family and, in my case, only recently became a higher earner (in fact, four years ago we had to take out a 401k loan because we were struggling). We were only able to save about $20k for our older children, but now that we are making more money we are regularly putting away money for our youngest. We still live in our starter home and don't take extravagant vacations or anything. Until a few years ago, we were also paying for my MIL's care in a nursing home. So, not all donut hole families are alike. My older kids will be/are attending OOS schools that offered merit. Expensive schools were not off the table when they applied, but it definitely would have been more difficult to afford out of pocket.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

The affordable options are the schools that meet full need through only grants. There is a reason there there is so much pressure and competition to get into those schools

There are 21 schools, out of more than 3K that do this for middle income families.

And, to be clear, they are offering a package that allows a family who feels they can afford their EFC to send their kid with no loans. Almost no one's EFC feels affordable. If someone is claiming to be a "donut hole" family, it's because their EFC does not feel affordable to them, and they feel that it requires loans to pay. I don't know why someone who believes their EFC gave them a number that is too hard to pay, believes that all the people with lower incomes than them have EFC's they can pay.

Anyway, here's the list. Other than Berea and Ozarks, all of those schools are highly rejective. Any student who gets into one of those will also have other strong options that give merit. The idea that someone who gets into a school on that list, and decides they can't afford it, won't get merit without going to Frostburg, is absurd. Those kids will have options.

Amherst College
Berea College
Bowdoin College
Brown University
Colby College
College of the Ozarks
Columbia University
Davidson College
Grinnell College
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Northwestern University
Pomona College
Princeton University
Stanford University
Swarthmore College
University of Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Lee University
Yale University

On paper. Good luck getting any $ if you make $150k. Ain’t happening no matter what they advertise.

I actually did get some from one of those schools. We were making about $200K and had 2 kids in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah. I don’t get any money on the college calculator. We are career feds. No Starbucks. No hair and nails (other than a $59 cut 3x a year). Cars are over 10 years old. No fancy vacas. I think it’s crazy that anyone expects us to be able to pay $80,000/year for college. I’m not begrudging the aid for those who make less. And I do have the option of working til I’m 75 to pay it off (that someone with less money doesn’t have). But boy, the list price is nuts. My parents were able to pay for the priciest private college on modest MC salaries without aid and not be in debt forever. I can’t.

Two career feds can easily be making $250-400K combine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K. It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K. It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

Silly teachers, nurses, fire fighters, etc choosing to live in expensive areas. They should all just commute a couple hours.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

Honestly THIS. Spending all the money on ‘I gotta have it’ items like sbux, hair and nails, a newer car, upgrading the house, a splurge vacation, all of that easily adds up to 15K per year. If it were invested for even 10 years, with compound interest that’s enough for private school. Rinse repeat for kid number 2.

Right! When most of us mention "spending at Starbucks" we are talking about people that actually have extra income to save. I'm not referring to the person already driving a 10yo Honda Accord who may not be able to save. I have empathy for them. But if they are also spending $100/month on Starbucks (a want not a Need), then yes, they could be saving that for college as well. It's a choice they are making and choices have consequences.

Yes college costs too much. But there are ways to do it affordably for most, it just may not be the Elite T20 schools.

NP. Yeah, I spend like $5 every other month at Starbucks. I can't afford that lifestyle! We also have saved rigorously for our 2 kids, and at under 150k HHI, will qualify for FA at some schools. Multi-prong strategy!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Having multiple kids and a private school is a choice. The lower income can get financial aid. The discussion is about DCUM middle class where they choose to live in million dollar houses and pretty comfortable with no sacrifices and except full financial aid.

We saved by not having cable, never going to starbucks, driving cars till they die, no vacations and a sh#t shack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

It's absurd to characterize 250k families as privileged in 2023. After taxes, there is not much left.

Yes, it is. Median household income in the United States is under $71K.[b] It’s no one else’s fault that you *chose* to live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.

DCUM’s ideas about income are delusional.

Most people live where they can get jobs and/or close to their family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah. I don’t get any money on the college calculator. We are career feds. No Starbucks. No hair and nails (other than a $59 cut 3x a year). Cars are over 10 years old. No fancy vacas. I think it’s crazy that anyone expects us to be able to pay $80,000/year for college. I’m not begrudging the aid for those who make less. And I do have the option of working til I’m 75 to pay it off (that someone with less money doesn’t have). But boy, the list price is nuts. My parents were able to pay for the priciest private college on modest MC salaries without aid and not be in debt forever. I can’t.

Two career feds can easily be making $250-400K combine.

Or they can...not. Ever met a park ranger? Or a fed who's not a lawyer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Our earnings would be lower elsewhere. It is also not realistic to think we could just move somewhere else and find employment. You seem to think this income implies a luxury lifestyle in NYC - we live in an outer borough, commute an hour to work in public transport, and send our kids to NYC public schools. Some people live in NY because they come from NY. I think you are very invested in the narrative that all donut hole families are whiners or have done something wrong. This makes you seem very self-righteous.

Anonymous wrote:

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If we earn 225k in NYC, do you really think that we can save enough for private college by skipping luxury cars? We don't even have a frigging car! Maybe if we lived in Nebraska.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

That's not true. College costs have increased so much families can't hope to deny themselves every luxury to meet that cost. We're fortunate that we can afford any college, but most people can't, even if they tighten their belt.

Please don't be so ignorant and smug.

Once again, you choose to live in NYC. I know it's expensive and $225K isn't much there. But that is a choice you make. You could job search and move to somewhere with a lower COL (literally anywhere except SF/Boston would be less)

DP. Millions of people live in different places than they “come from.” You continuing to love there, in one of the most expensive cities in the country (yes, including boroughs other than Manhattan) is a CHOICE. You are owed $0 FA for that choice.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of us got into the financial position to be in the donut hole by doing "everything right" being top students all through school, getting into a highly selective college, graduating, working for years to move up the corporate ladder, saving for college every month since our kids got out of daycare, provide the enrichment/tutoring/house in a top school district that allowed our kids to do well enough to get into a top college. But now we can't afford to send them to the top college on the level that we attended.

I know, cry me a river. It's such a deeply privileged sob story.

This. My college was expensive at about $100K for 4 years. To send my kid there now, it's $400K.

You are not the sharpest tool if you send your kid to a school that costs 100k/yr. This is like buying a Birkin bag and complaining how expensive handbags are these days.

I agree, only idiots send their kids to Stanford

Pretty much when the same kid can get into uva.

HAHAHAHA.

[Anonymous]

Maybe I missed someone else posting this, but it is about to get WORSE for donut hole families who have two kids close in age! Quietly how financial aid is calculated for people who have two kids in college has changed. Instead of factoring in having to pay tuition for multiple kids now financial aid is no calculating this.

By this it used to be that let's say you earn 150000 and the EFC says you can contribute 60,000. It used to be that if you had two kids then you paid 30K per kid. Or if you had three kids in college you were expected to contribute 20K per year. Now you are expected to contribute 60K no matter how many other college tuitions you are paying. So if you have two kids you would pay 120,000 which is ridiculous for a family making 150,000.