MCPS High School 7:45am for teens is to early

[Anonymous]

Also the problem is kids have too much screen time which makes it hard to go to sleep. If they need to do sone homework on a computer make sure they do that before dinner. When they don’t start homework until late it will mess with melatonin. Be the parent and limit screen time before bed and it will work wonders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:10:14 again- the only way I could ever see MCPS changing on this is if the tide turns against them, i.e. other area districts make the switch en masse. IIRC only Loudon has tried so far.

AACPS just did a huge change. High schools started at 7:18 last year and start at 8:30 now. It was very controversial with all of the ideas listed here. It seems to be working well now that it's actually implemented.
(Well, transportation is a total disaster, but the marginal difference isn't significant)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:10:14 again- the only way I could ever see MCPS changing on this is if the tide turns against them, i.e. other area districts make the switch en masse. IIRC only Loudon has tried so far.

Many other districts start later than MCPS.
DCPS, Loudon, Arlington, Howard, etc all start later.
Most states start high school later than MCPS.
But somehow people here think logistical issues are unsolvable in MCPS.
Makes me feel like our county is backward thinking and not solution oriented

Nobody has said that they are unsolvable. MCPS can solve them, by either (1) redirecting a lot of school funding to buses and bus drivers, or (2) shifting the current schedule. MCPS has twice decided that the potential disadvantages of either option outweigh the potential advantages. It's valid to say that you disagree with this decision. It's not valid to say that MCPS didn't consider the options.

are you willing to be a driver?

There is an obvious solution to the bus driver shortage. MCPS needs to pay them more. You cannot pay pennies and expect people to work.
Same with teachers. If there is a shortage, increase pay. That is how things work

In this obvious solution, what should MCPS stop paying for, in order to pay for more bus drivers, so that high school students can start school at a non-ridiculously-early time? Keeping in mind that even underpaid labor is expensive.

There's also the issue that everyone is having a bus driver shortage, including public transportation agencies that pay quite well.

I'll offer one - get rid of that awful Leader in Me program. I don't want to know how much they pay for it.

Too much for what it is, $0 would be too much, but not enough to pay for more buses and higher pay for bus drivers.

Oh and don't forget bocce and the kids museum because they're on my grudge list!

I'm sorry that the inclusion of students with disabilities is something "on your grudge list".

Fortunately, federal law doesn't agree with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156998/
"The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly supports the efforts of school districts to optimize sleep in students and urges high schools and middle schools to aim for start times that allow students the opportunity to achieve optimal levels of sleep (8.5-9.5 hours) and to improve physical (eg, reduced obesity risk) and mental (eg, lower rates of depression) health, safety (eg, drowsy driving crashes), academic performance, and quality of life."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27040474/
"Insufficient sleep in adolescents has been shown to be associated with a wide variety of adverse outcomes, from poor mental and physical health to behavioral problems and lower academic grades. However, most high school students do not get sufficient sleep. Delaying school start times for adolescents has been proposed as a policy change to address insufficient sleep in this population and potentially to improve students' academic performance, reduce engagement in risk behaviors, and improve health. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34073415/
"Survey-weighted multivariate regression modeling was used to investigate associations between school start times, sleep duration, and mental health. Schools with late start times (≥8:30 a.m.) saw 32.2% (95% Confidence Interval: 29.5-35.0) of students sleeping 8 h or more relative to 23.2% (22.0-24.4) in schools with very early start times (<8:00 a.m.). For every 15 min later school start time, students' sleep duration was 4.6 (3.4-5.9) min longer. Students attending schools with very early start times had 1.10 (0.95-1.27) times the odds of attempting suicide compared to those attending schools with later start times, while students at schools with early starts (8:00-8:29 a.m.) were associated with 1.11 (0.98-1.27) times the odds." and "Schools with start times before 8:30 a.m. had 10-11% higher odds of students attempting suicide compared to schools with late start times, though these differences were not statistically significant. Student mental health should continue to be investigated when assessing the potential impacts of delayed school start times. "

But who needs science?

Lots of science denying on DCUM.

So, changing start times impacts 9% of students' sleep. What percent of families rely on high school employment, or high school child care? Do we have statistics on that?

If the issue is 9% of kids, wouldn't it make more sense to have kids with this particular special need take a reduced course load, and come in a period late?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to hs in the 90s and our start time was 7:10. I wasn’t on a cell phone. It was brutal and looking back I strongly believe my hs years and my entire friggin trajectory in life would’ve been better if I didn’t have to wake up by 6am. I won’t do this to my kids.

Are you always this absurdly melodramatic, or only on DCUM?

The chronic sleep deprivation heavily contributed to my first major depressive episode at 16. The consequences of which reverberated throughout the following years. It's not melodrama.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If they changed the start time for HS where I work, teens would leave school early to pick up their younger siblings. I'd say 60-70% of my kindergarten students are picked up by their MS and HS siblings.

Because they can. Schools would adjust.

At least 60% of families in your class have children who are in kindergarten and in MS or HS (5 or more year age gap)?

If start times change, there will have to be a way to adjust. Assuming that you are talking able low-income families, having exhausted high school students assume responsibility for younger siblings hampers their academic progress (and furthers achievement gaps).

Also, do they not have buses at your school?

No buses except for special ed students. We have Hispanic families with tons of siblings of all ages in ES, MS and HS. It isn't unusual to have a sibling from the same family every 2-3 yrs. These families don't have the means for babysitters and the younger kids would just sit in the office after school if nobody could pick them up. There would be a lot of them there.

That is not a reason to start school at an early time for older kids.

Of course it is. It might not be a reason you find compelling, but "lots of our students have family obligations later in the day" is a reason to start them earlier.

No, it's a reason to fund aftercare in elementary schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:14 again- the only way I could ever see MCPS changing on this is if the tide turns against them, i.e. other area districts make the switch en masse. IIRC only Loudon has tried so far.

AACPS just did a huge change. High schools started at 7:18 last year and start at 8:30 now. It was very controversial with all of the ideas listed here. It seems to be working well now that it's actually implemented.
(Well, transportation is a total disaster, but the marginal difference isn't significant)

How did they implement it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25156998/
"The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly supports the efforts of school districts to optimize sleep in students and urges high schools and middle schools to aim for start times that allow students the opportunity to achieve optimal levels of sleep (8.5-9.5 hours) and to improve physical (eg, reduced obesity risk) and mental (eg, lower rates of depression) health, safety (eg, drowsy driving crashes), academic performance, and quality of life."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27040474/
"Insufficient sleep in adolescents has been shown to be associated with a wide variety of adverse outcomes, from poor mental and physical health to behavioral problems and lower academic grades. However, most high school students do not get sufficient sleep. Delaying school start times for adolescents has been proposed as a policy change to address insufficient sleep in this population and potentially to improve students' academic performance, reduce engagement in risk behaviors, and improve health. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34073415/
"Survey-weighted multivariate regression modeling was used to investigate associations between school start times, sleep duration, and mental health. Schools with late start times (≥8:30 a.m.) saw 32.2% (95% Confidence Interval: 29.5-35.0) of students sleeping 8 h or more relative to 23.2% (22.0-24.4) in schools with very early start times (<8:00 a.m.). For every 15 min later school start time, students' sleep duration was 4.6 (3.4-5.9) min longer. Students attending schools with very early start times had 1.10 (0.95-1.27) times the odds of attempting suicide compared to those attending schools with later start times, while students at schools with early starts (8:00-8:29 a.m.) were associated with 1.11 (0.98-1.27) times the odds." and "Schools with start times before 8:30 a.m. had 10-11% higher odds of students attempting suicide compared to schools with late start times, though these differences were not statistically significant. Student mental health should continue to be investigated when assessing the potential impacts of delayed school start times. "

But who needs science?

Lots of science denying on DCUM.

So, changing start times impacts 9% of students' sleep. What percent of families rely on high school employment, or high school child care? Do we have statistics on that?

If the issue is 9% of kids, wouldn't it make more sense to have kids with this particular special need take a reduced course load, and come in a period late?

Those do seem like important stats to tabulate. Because depending on the % of students that are reliant on an older HS student for childcare, that's something that could be remedied by allocating some funding for aftercare. Before care is actually an issue at the moment too but people look away from the 6yos who are walking themselves to the bus stop or sitting outside the school in the rain until the school opens at 9am.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:14 again- the only way I could ever see MCPS changing on this is if the tide turns against them, i.e. other area districts make the switch en masse. IIRC only Loudon has tried so far.

Many other districts start later than MCPS.
DCPS, Loudon, Arlington, Howard, etc all start later.
Most states start high school later than MCPS.
But somehow people here think logistical issues are unsolvable in MCPS.
Makes me feel like our county is backward thinking and not solution oriented

Nobody has said that they are unsolvable. MCPS can solve them, by either (1) redirecting a lot of school funding to buses and bus drivers, or (2) shifting the current schedule. MCPS has twice decided that the potential disadvantages of either option outweigh the potential advantages. It's valid to say that you disagree with this decision. It's not valid to say that MCPS didn't consider the options.

are you willing to be a driver?

There is an obvious solution to the bus driver shortage. MCPS needs to pay them more. You cannot pay pennies and expect people to work.
Same with teachers. If there is a shortage, increase pay. That is how things work

In this obvious solution, what should MCPS stop paying for, in order to pay for more bus drivers, so that high school students can start school at a non-ridiculously-early time? Keeping in mind that even underpaid labor is expensive.

There's also the issue that everyone is having a bus driver shortage, including public transportation agencies that pay quite well.

I'll offer one - get rid of that awful Leader in Me program. I don't want to know how much they pay for it.

Too much for what it is, $0 would be too much, but not enough to pay for more buses and higher pay for bus drivers.

Oh and don't forget bocce and the kids museum because they're on my grudge list!

I'm sorry that the inclusion of students with disabilities is something "on your grudge list".

Fortunately, federal law doesn't agree with you.

Neither has to do with inclusion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to hs in the 90s and our start time was 7:10. I wasn’t on a cell phone. It was brutal and looking back I strongly believe my hs years and my entire friggin trajectory in life would’ve been better if I didn’t have to wake up by 6am. I won’t do this to my kids.

Are you always this absurdly melodramatic, or only on DCUM?

The chronic sleep deprivation heavily contributed to my first major depressive episode at 16. The consequences of which reverberated throughout the following years. It's not melodrama.

Then you should hmave gone to bed earlier or napped. That’s not why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also the problem is kids have too much screen time which makes it hard to go to sleep. If they need to do sone homework on a computer make sure they do that before dinner. When they don’t start homework until late it will mess with melatonin. Be the parent and limit screen time before bed and it will work wonders.

Maybe your kids buy when do they have time. Mine have activities, tutoring and homework. That’s a parenting issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just moved to MoCo and am shocked by the late elementary start time! That's going to be a major adjustment. My kids will enjoy the long morning at home, though- I think.

Also, I went to a HS that started at 7:30 and that was just awful. I remember being tired all the time and constantly late. Makes zero sense.

Before the pandemic we put our elementary school kids in before care. Now that my spouse has a flexible work schedule and can work from home most days, he can drop them off by 9am.
I think that switching the elementary school and high school start times, although not ideal, would be better than what we have now.

This option was thoroughly discussed both of the previous times MCPS studied the options. MCPS decided, on grounds that you personally may disagree with, that it would not be better than what we have now.

Sounds like MCPS decided it would be easier on them not to change anything.

MCPS did make a change, though. So: no.

Yes, just not the right change.

"The right change" means the one you wanted.

The one that prioritizes the physical and mental well-being of teenagers, yes.

No. The one you wanted.

So, a few posters of kids refuse to get up to go to school so the rest of our kids should lose their activities, after-school jobs/volunteering, and homework/tutoring time. That doesn't seem to prioritize physical or mental health. If kids cannot do sports or exercise, then that impacts their physical health. For some kids, outside-school programs are good for their mental health, so they shouldn't get to have them because that poster cannot wake up their spoiled kids.

So, if school is later, kids get home later how to we get our kids physical and mental well-bing better after you take away things important to them?

Maybe take your kid to the doctor for sleeping pills.

Some of you are insane- maybe just 1-2 posters? Other districts (and not just CA) have found a way to make this work and gasp! still have extracurriculars and sports programs. So dramatic. If you’re seriously advocating to arrange school times to enable high school kids have extended hour after school jobs, you’re entitled to that POV but schools should be prioritizing actual education.

Most school systems are not very large. You just will have kids staying up later. That solves nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also the problem is kids have too much screen time which makes it hard to go to sleep. If they need to do sone homework on a computer make sure they do that before dinner. When they don’t start homework until late it will mess with melatonin. Be the parent and limit screen time before bed and it will work wonders.

Maybe your kids buy when do they have time. Mine have activities, tutoring and homework. That’s a parenting issue.

Sounds like your parenting issue is overscheduling your kids.....

[Anonymous]

There is a national movement to push back HS start times. Here is the local MCPS group:


https://www.startschoollater.net/md---montgomery-county.html.

And a letter from the MC Chapter Leader:

https://www.startschoollater.net/uploads/9/7/9/6/9796500/final_ssl_montgomery_county_2022_election_letter.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also the problem is kids have too much screen time which makes it hard to go to sleep. If they need to do sone homework on a computer make sure they do that before dinner. When they don’t start homework until late it will mess with melatonin. Be the parent and limit screen time before bed and it will work wonders.

Maybe your kids buy when do they have time. Mine have activities, tutoring and homework. That’s a parenting issue.

Sounds like your parenting issue is overscheduling your kids.....

Having my kids involved with sports and music to enrich their lives, which is also their choice, is not over scheduling. Utilizing the free tutoring MCPS is providing as a support is not over-scheduling. And, yet, my kids are just fine with the school schedule and don't need extra sleep like yours do. Maybe if your kids were involved in more activities they'd be tired and could go to bed and it would keep them off social media/electronics.