"Racists are recruiting. Watch your white sons."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have 8 yo twins. I'm Asian, so my kids are half-Asian. But as we are higher income, they are privileged and essentially lead a life of white privilege.

We talk about race a lot. We note the race of their friends and our family friends. As we live in PG County, we are a minority here, and there are a lot of black and Hispanic neighbors and people around. We make sure that we note that everyone is equal. That no one is better or worse than others based on the color of their skin. We have talked about racial inequalities in the past and that we must be sensitive to ensure that everyone feels that they are being treated equally and that no one feels that they are being treated differently or less than others.

OP, I think that you are making a mistake. By looking to find positive models of whiteness, you will instill a sense of racial superiority in them. The American world around them, especially in bastions of white elitism like most of the DCUM world, caters to white Americans. It automatically gives them white privilege and gives them an advantage in life. If you also reinforce those societal advantages by highlighting positive models of whiteness, then you will cause them to look up to those models and will also give them a sense of racial superiority. Personally what I think you need to do is counter the messages that being white is bad or a problem. You need to emphasize that racially everyone is equal, that no one is greater or less than any other due to race. Make sure to note positive role models of all races without emphasis on the positive models of whiteness. This is the message that needs to be given to our youth. That all are created equal and that all should be treated equal regardless of race.

While I understand why you chose the message that you did, I think that it will backfire if you try to push that and you will end up instilling a sense of white superiority. Good luck.

Thanks, this is helpful.

[Anonymous]

What I've done with my white boy (a teen now) is talk quite a bit about race and history, while also giving him a sense of how he can be on the side of right. We have a long family history of participation in abolition and civil rights, and so we can tell him that he has a place in the struggle as an ally. Its convenient to be able to share family history, but I think its important for kids to identify with something. We don't want them to feel excluded from the struggle by their whiteness when talking about oppression - we want them to feel a sense of solidarity with those who fight it. So yes, it is important to give white kids models of white anti-racists they can identify with and look up to and feel that the struggle against racism is a critical part of the American story, and as Americans it becomes their story, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I've done with my white boy (a teen now) is talk quite a bit about race and history, while also giving him a sense of how he can be on the side of right. We have a long family history of participation in abolition and civil rights, and so we can tell him that he has a place in the struggle as an ally. Its convenient to be able to share family history, but I think its important for kids to identify with something. We don't want them to feel excluded from the struggle by their whiteness when talking about oppression - we want them to feel a sense of solidarity with those who fight it. So yes, it is important to give white kids models of white anti-racists they can identify with and look up to and feel that the struggle against racism is a critical part of the American story, and as Americans it becomes their story, too.

Thanks. This is helpful. If you have any oppression in your family history, do you ever talk about that and make the connection to current events? (Like war refugees, immigrants etc).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I've done with my white boy (a teen now) is talk quite a bit about race and history, while also giving him a sense of how he can be on the side of right. We have a long family history of participation in abolition and civil rights, and so we can tell him that he has a place in the struggle as an ally. Its convenient to be able to share family history, but I think its important for kids to identify with something. We don't want them to feel excluded from the struggle by their whiteness when talking about oppression - we want them to feel a sense of solidarity with those who fight it. So yes, it is important to give white kids models of white anti-racists they can identify with and look up to and feel that the struggle against racism is a critical part of the American story, and as Americans it becomes their story, too.

Thanks. This is helpful. If you have any oppression in your family history, do you ever talk about that and make the connection to current events? (Like war refugees, immigrants etc).

A bit. My husband's family were immigrants in 1900 after bouncing around Europe being driven from one country to another, and he grew up very poor. But it feels very remote to my son, and when he's read European immigrant stories that reflect his dad's side of the family he hasn't been interested. He has been very interested in reading books like The Hate U Give which reflect modern struggles, though. And so because that is inherently interesting to him we try to show him what his role might be rather than trying to make him feel like his family was oppressed, too. Way back, sure. But recently, no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

OP here. While this may be a useful way for some people to understand whiteness, my sense is that it's a completely counterproductive way to talk about race with a child. (And I'm not sure your notion of blackness existing and whiteness not is really coherent anyway.) A 7 year old is just going to hear "your skin color is bad; theirs is good." It's hard for an adult to grasp the concept of race being relative, so I'm not sure how a kid would. Also, what connection do your kids have to their German, Irish and Dutch heritage? How is teaching them to be proud of being European (if it's not really part of your daily lives - which is the case for most Americans) any different from being proud of being white?

But you're demonstrating my basic point. The current discourse on race/whiteness/white supremacy is too abstract to be a good teaching tool for kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

OP here. While this may be a useful way for some people to understand whiteness, my sense is that it's a completely counterproductive way to talk about race with a child. (And I'm not sure your notion of blackness existing and whiteness not is really coherent anyway.) A 7 year old is just going to hear "your skin color is bad; theirs is good." It's hard for an adult to grasp the concept of race being relative, so I'm not sure how a kid would. Also, what connection do your kids have to their German, Irish and Dutch heritage? How is teaching them to be proud of being European (if it's not really part of your daily lives - which is the case for most Americans) any different from being proud of being white?

But you're demonstrating my basic point. The current discourse on race/whiteness/white supremacy is too abstract to be a good teaching tool for kids.

Really? One is being proud of their family roots, customs, culture. The other is being proud of the color of their skin.

Give kids more credit for what they can understand. Obviously whiteness/blackness isn't a useful concept for a 5 year old, but you should be having these conversations regularly through their entire childhood.

[Anonymous]

DP. I know where my some of my grandparents came from, and DH knows where some of his grandparents came from. Basically, though, we're not descendants of Europeans, we're descendants of Americans. We're Americans, Americans who are white.

It's hard to say that we should give kids more credit for what they can understand when we also say that we, as adults, don't understand race or whiteness.

I agree with OP's point, that teaching our children, including our white boys, that white people are bad isn't productive. It's not accurate or helpful.

[Anonymous]

The white fragility on here is really something. We white people have an important duty here to dismantle white supremacy. Our children get countless white role models. Don't be worried about that. It's important to let them see POC as leaders and contributors to this society too, instead of continually casting them as criminals, the help, or athletes.

My white family has been in America for a long time also, since before it was a country. We celebrate the good things about American history and culture and I educate them on the bad things also. We are proud of the good things, we are NOT proud of being white. Being white is NOT being American.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

I'm the Asian parent from above. I disagree. I don't believe that any race or skin color is inherently negative. Yes, white supremacy and aryanism is reprehensible, but white Americans are no better or worse than Americans of any other race, whether black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or Asian.

I find that teaching children that "white is bad" is just as destructive as the former state where "black is bad" and "Asians are bad". We don't need to substitute one form or bigotry and racism for another. I find it much more important to emphasize the positive message that all races are good and equal. That there are bad individuals in any group including racial groups, but that doesn't mean anything in the greater context of race in America. I believe that we will have a better chance at raising non-racist children by promoting equality and equal worth and lifting the previously persecuted groups up rather than trying to push the privileged groups down. The latter only festers resentment and self-loathing which does nothing to help promote equality. All it does is creates white supremacists from those who feel cheated by the system that is castigating them for being white or creates depressed individuals who don't see their own self-worth because of being told for many years that they are wrong just for the color of their skin, essentially placing them at the level of the formerly oppressed groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

OP here. While this may be a useful way for some people to understand whiteness, my sense is that it's a completely counterproductive way to talk about race with a child. (And I'm not sure your notion of blackness existing and whiteness not is really coherent anyway.) A 7 year old is just going to hear "your skin color is bad; theirs is good." It's hard for an adult to grasp the concept of race being relative, so I'm not sure how a kid would. Also, what connection do your kids have to their German, Irish and Dutch heritage? How is teaching them to be proud of being European (if it's not really part of your daily lives - which is the case for most Americans) any different from being proud of being white?

But you're demonstrating my basic point. The current discourse on race/whiteness/white supremacy is too abstract to be a good teaching tool for kids.

Really? One is being proud of their family roots, customs, culture. The other is being proud of the color of their skin.

Give kids more credit for what they can understand. Obviously whiteness/blackness isn't a useful concept for a 5 year old, but you should be having these conversations regularly through their entire childhood.

My point is that most (not all) white Americans don't really have much of a connection to their Irish/German/Dutch ancestors in any tangible way. So it's not clear to me what playing up that (imagined) culture would really do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The white fragility on here is really something. We white people have an important duty here to dismantle white supremacy. Our children get countless white role models. Don't be worried about that. It's important to let them see POC as leaders and contributors to this society too, instead of continually casting them as criminals, the help, or athletes.

My white family has been in America for a long time also, since before it was a country. We celebrate the good things about American history and culture and I educate them on the bad things also. We are proud of the good things, we are NOT proud of being white. Being white is NOT being American.

What white fragility? Again, an un-useful concept when it comes to teaching my 7 year old to be anti-racist. I can't put abstract notions like "white fragility" ahead of actually using age-appropriate concepts with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

I'm the Asian parent from above. I disagree. I don't believe that any race or skin color is inherently negative. Yes, white supremacy and aryanism is reprehensible, but white Americans are no better or worse than Americans of any other race, whether black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or Asian.

I find that teaching children that "white is bad" is just as destructive as the former state where "black is bad" and "Asians are bad". We don't need to substitute one form or bigotry and racism for another. I find it much more important to emphasize the positive message that all races are good and equal. That there are bad individuals in any group including racial groups, but that doesn't mean anything in the greater context of race in America. I believe that we will have a better chance at raising non-racist children by promoting equality and equal worth and lifting the previously persecuted groups up rather than trying to push the privileged groups down. The latter only festers resentment and self-loathing which does nothing to help promote equality. All it does is creates white supremacists from those who feel cheated by the system that is castigating them for being white or creates depressed individuals who don't see their own self-worth because of being told for many years that they are wrong just for the color of their skin, essentially placing them at the level of the formerly oppressed groups.

Did you read the post? Think about it? It does NOT say white skin is inherently negative. It says "whiteness" is negative. And it goes on to define whiteness. Read it. Good lord, y'all are lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

OP here. While this may be a useful way for some people to understand whiteness, my sense is that it's a completely counterproductive way to talk about race with a child. (And I'm not sure your notion of blackness existing and whiteness not is really coherent anyway.) A 7 year old is just going to hear "your skin color is bad; theirs is good." It's hard for an adult to grasp the concept of race being relative, so I'm not sure how a kid would. Also, what connection do your kids have to their German, Irish and Dutch heritage? How is teaching them to be proud of being European (if it's not really part of your daily lives - which is the case for most Americans) any different from being proud of being white?

But you're demonstrating my basic point. The current discourse on race/whiteness/white supremacy is too abstract to be a good teaching tool for kids.

Really? One is being proud of their family roots, customs, culture. The other is being proud of the color of their skin.

Give kids more credit for what they can understand. Obviously whiteness/blackness isn't a useful concept for a 5 year old, but you should be having these conversations regularly through their entire childhood.

My point is that most (not all) white Americans don't really have much of a connection to their Irish/German/Dutch ancestors in any tangible way. So it's not clear to me what playing up that (imagined) culture would really do?

So you will "play up" their skin color instead? I hope not. Hopefully you will educate them about American history, good and bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

I'm the Asian parent from above. I disagree. I don't believe that any race or skin color is inherently negative. Yes, white supremacy and aryanism is reprehensible, but white Americans are no better or worse than Americans of any other race, whether black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or Asian.

I find that teaching children that "white is bad" is just as destructive as the former state where "black is bad" and "Asians are bad". We don't need to substitute one form or bigotry and racism for another. I find it much more important to emphasize the positive message that all races are good and equal. That there are bad individuals in any group including racial groups, but that doesn't mean anything in the greater context of race in America. I believe that we will have a better chance at raising non-racist children by promoting equality and equal worth and lifting the previously persecuted groups up rather than trying to push the privileged groups down. The latter only festers resentment and self-loathing which does nothing to help promote equality. All it does is creates white supremacists from those who feel cheated by the system that is castigating them for being white or creates depressed individuals who don't see their own self-worth because of being told for many years that they are wrong just for the color of their skin, essentially placing them at the level of the formerly oppressed groups.

Did you read the post? Think about it? It does NOT say white skin is inherently negative. It says "whiteness" is negative. And it goes on to define whiteness. Read it. Good lord, y'all are lazy.

I don't think anyone here is lazy. But expecting kids to make any useful distinction between "white skin" and "whiteness" is pretty nonsensical.