"Racists are recruiting. Watch your white sons."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

are you trying to say that you think the linked article is "centering" and shouldn't have been published?

No, I’m saying that the OP’s insistence that kids can’t be inoculated against becoming white supremacists without “positive white role models” is silly...and racist.

The article is fine.

why is that silly? We’re talking about kids. Do you really think that teaching kids whiteness is negative is a good way to raise kids who are anti-racist? I don’t think you’ve thought this through.

Whiteness IS negative. I'm white and how I understand it (which I learned from multiple POC) is that whiteness is completely made up. It's a way to band white people of *known* heritages together against blackness. Blackness DOES exist because we stripped millions of black people of their heritage when we brought them over on slave ships. Whiteness is what our society uses to grab power. You can't lump people of English, Irish, Danish, Czech, Russian, Polish, Moldovan, Greek descent together. Hell, the English and the French HATE each other and everyone hates the Germans. I will teach my children to be proud of their Irish, German, and Dutch heritage, and I will also teach them that American "white" culture is a weapon.

OP here. While this may be a useful way for some people to understand whiteness, my sense is that it's a completely counterproductive way to talk about race with a child. (And I'm not sure your notion of blackness existing and whiteness not is really coherent anyway.) A 7 year old is just going to hear "your skin color is bad; theirs is good." It's hard for an adult to grasp the concept of race being relative, so I'm not sure how a kid would. Also, what connection do your kids have to their German, Irish and Dutch heritage? How is teaching them to be proud of being European (if it's not really part of your daily lives - which is the case for most Americans) any different from being proud of being white?

But you're demonstrating my basic point. The current discourse on race/whiteness/white supremacy is too abstract to be a good teaching tool for kids.

Really? One is being proud of their family roots, customs, culture. The other is being proud of the color of their skin.

Give kids more credit for what they can understand. Obviously whiteness/blackness isn't a useful concept for a 5 year old, but you should be having these conversations regularly through their entire childhood.

My point is that most (not all) white Americans don't really have much of a connection to their Irish/German/Dutch ancestors in any tangible way. So it's not clear to me what playing up that (imagined) culture would really do?

So you will "play up" their skin color instead? I hope not. Hopefully you will educate them about American history, good and bad.

No, that's not what I was getting at! Just that I'm not sure that playing up a mythical European heritage is much different from talking about whiteness in general. The idea is more like "some white people like John Brown, Schwerner, Goodman, & Chaney used their privilege to fight racism."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone read this essay from the NYTimes Magazine? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

I thought it was very thought-provoking. My son is only 7, but for me one of the key lines is this: "Parents of white kids need to talk about race and racism and how they’ve played out in this country — a lot. That history includes horrors and tragedies, but as Dr. Tochluk says, it also “includes the fact that there have always been groups of white people in the United States who have fought for freedom and liberty for all.”"

I've gotten really heated responses from my very liberal friends online when I say this, but now that whiteness has been reified, white kids (esp boys) have to be given positive models of whiteness. There's no way whiteness can be just "bad" in popular culture, and not expect that adolescent boys won't object to that. 12-13-14 is too young to fully understand ideas like white privilege, in my opinion. Sometimes I also think that the discourse on "white supremacy" as an abstract almost supernatural, ahistorical force is also ultimately very counter-productive.

Thanks for making White Nationalism, which is growing, public. It needs to be disclosed. Parents need to be awake. So many are not.

[Anonymous]

It rings true and it’s amusing to see so many defensive white people with their head in the sand.


It’s like y’all have never opened a history book before. These organizations prey on young white boys.

-white mom of white boys

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It rings true and it’s amusing to see so many defensive white people with their head in the sand.


It’s like y’all have never opened a history book before. These organizations prey on young white boys.

-white mom of white boys

I didn't see any posters on this thread in denial about white nationalism & risks to white boys. So not sure what you're talking about? The question is the best teaching tools to communicate these values.

[Anonymous]

Confusion reigns.
Leave all the kids alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Positive models of whiteness! Like white people who do not center themselves in every discussion about the effects of structural racism and active white supremacy. They’re out there.

+2000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone read this essay from the NYTimes Magazine? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

I thought it was very thought-provoking. My son is only 7, but for me one of the key lines is this: "Parents of white kids need to talk about race and racism and how they’ve played out in this country — a lot. That history includes horrors and tragedies, but as Dr. Tochluk says, it also “includes the fact that there have always been groups of white people in the United States who have fought for freedom and liberty for all.”"

I've gotten really heated responses from my very liberal friends online when I say this, but now that whiteness has been reified, white kids (esp boys) have to be given positive models of whiteness. There's no way whiteness can be just "bad" in popular culture, and not expect that adolescent boys won't object to that. 12-13-14 is too young to fully understand ideas like white privilege, in my opinion. Sometimes I also think that the discourse on "white supremacy" as an abstract almost supernatural, ahistorical force is also ultimately very counter-productive.

you sound like a recruiter....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone read this essay from the NYTimes Magazine? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

I thought it was very thought-provoking. My son is only 7, but for me one of the key lines is this: "Parents of white kids need to talk about race and racism and how they’ve played out in this country — a lot. That history includes horrors and tragedies, but as Dr. Tochluk says, it also “includes the fact that there have always been groups of white people in the United States who have fought for freedom and liberty for all.”"

I've gotten really heated responses from my very liberal friends online when I say this, but now that whiteness has been reified, white kids (esp boys) have to be given positive models of whiteness. There's no way whiteness can be just "bad" in popular culture, and not expect that adolescent boys won't object to that. 12-13-14 is too young to fully understand ideas like white privilege, in my opinion. Sometimes I also think that the discourse on "white supremacy" as an abstract almost supernatural, ahistorical force is also ultimately very counter-productive.

you sound like a recruiter....

are you serious? get a life. this was a real question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone read this essay from the NYTimes Magazine? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

I thought it was very thought-provoking. My son is only 7, but for me one of the key lines is this: "Parents of white kids need to talk about race and racism and how they’ve played out in this country — a lot. That history includes horrors and tragedies, but as Dr. Tochluk says, it also “includes the fact that there have always been groups of white people in the United States who have fought for freedom and liberty for all.”"

I've gotten really heated responses from my very liberal friends online when I say this, but now that whiteness has been reified, white kids (esp boys) have to be given positive models of whiteness. There's no way whiteness can be just "bad" in popular culture, and not expect that adolescent boys won't object to that. 12-13-14 is too young to fully understand ideas like white privilege, in my opinion. Sometimes I also think that the discourse on "white supremacy" as an abstract almost supernatural, ahistorical force is also ultimately very counter-productive.

you sound like a recruiter....

I am very serious. You speak from opinion, as you said. Do your work, read, engage. Noone has time to educate you.

are you serious? get a life. this was a real question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mr. Rogers was a white guy who was great at showing how non-racist he was.

he didn't fight institutional racism though. you need to fight.

Oh, my friend, you are gravely mistaken about the career of Mr. Rogers.

Yep. PP, watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObHNWh3F5fQ

There's a particular scene where Mr. Rogers and Officer Clemmons put their feet in a pool together on a hot day. To do that in the 1960s was absolutely ground-breaking.

[Anonymous]

OP again wrote:

OP wrote:Anyone read this essay from the NYTimes Magazine? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/opinion/sunday/white-supremacist-recruitment.html

I thought it was very thought-provoking. My son is only 7, but for me one of the key lines is this: "Parents of white kids need to talk about race and racism and how they’ve played out in this country — a lot. That history includes horrors and tragedies, but as Dr. Tochluk says, it also “includes the fact that there have always been groups of white people in the United States who have fought for freedom and liberty for all.”"

I've gotten really heated responses from my very liberal friends online when I say this, but now that whiteness has been reified, white kids (esp boys) have to be given positive models of whiteness. There's no way whiteness can be just "bad" in popular culture, and not expect that adolescent boys won't object to that. 12-13-14 is too young to fully understand ideas like white privilege, in my opinion. Sometimes I also think that the discourse on "white supremacy" as an abstract almost supernatural, ahistorical force is also ultimately very counter-productive.

and furthermore -- feel free to ask Jeff about me. I often flag racist posts and have posted numerous times about white supremacists on dcum. He may be able to confirm this from my IP address. this is a very sincere question about how to talk about whiteness and racism with white boys in a way that makes them less susceptible to recruitment. feel free to say what you think about the actual subject.

DP than the one that you are arguing about (the one that accuses you of being a recruiter).

I personally think that they way you are going about it makes them *MORE* inclined to be recruitable. White citizens of the US have a systemic advantage over other citizens by virtue of their race, e.g. white privilege. By ignoring that concept and looking for "positive models of whiteness" you are only going to reinforce the positive messages that give white supremacists their feeling of superiority. Our society is laden with messages that denegrate other races. Blacks are criminal hoods, Hispanics are illegal immigrants who are here to steal jobs from hard-working Americans (read white Americans), Asians are still associated with duplicity like those d**n J*ps from WWII, and so on. Many stereotypes, and very few of them positive. So, by default, they start with a message that white Americans are better and don't have any of the inherent racial weaknesses of the other races. The only negative message they get is that whites are racist, but everything they see in societal stereotypes only reinforces the subconscious message that whites are better.

So, you way to avoid reinforcing those messages is to start with the message that everyone is good and everyone is equal. Fight the negative stereotypes of all races. Don't push white heroes or admirable white public figures specifically. Look for good models of all races with whites mixed in about equally with the other races. Basically look for good role models of every race, but make sure to be conscious that you select a balanced crew of heroes. Then you'll create the egalitarian and fair view without the racial overtones or biases that make young white Americans, specifically male, good fodder for the White Nationalists.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I don't have time right now to read the original article, so forgive me for jumping in. BUT I have an 11 year old boy and am really following this closely since I first saw it a few months ago. I can't believe how insidious some of these messages are, so hats off to everyone who is preaching awareness, both in their families and with others. We are at a very diverse DC public school and here are some things I have observed my son do:

1) the OK sign held down on the leg. When asked where he learned it, what he thinks it means, who at school does it, he says he doesn't know, they think it's funny, it doesn't mean anything and many friends do it (of all races). I have told him it can be a white power symbol and absolutely must never do it.
2) joking around playing fortnite online with friends and saying, oh are you triggered? Again, he says that everyone says it and it doesn't mean anything. Again long talk about what tiriggering means and why it's not a joke. (we have PTSD military family members so that was pretty simple to connect for him.)
3) were just at some chain restaurant with 1000 TVs and one shows a commercial with kids playing ball, argument, white boy is picked on by larger brown and diverse kids, sits sad and alone until a white girl comes along and they solve the problem (no sound so I couldn't figure out what the drama was). Turns out it is some "values" org showing this ad on Fox News channel. We had a conversation about what the ad is doing by showing the white boy being ganged up on by a diverse group of kids. He is a pretty sensitive kid, so his first instinct was to feel bad for the kid (of course that is okay) but miss the insidious and subtle undertext.

Seriously this stuff is out there and very very scary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time right now to read the original article, so forgive me for jumping in. BUT I have an 11 year old boy and am really following this closely since I first saw it a few months ago. I can't believe how insidious some of these messages are, so hats off to everyone who is preaching awareness, both in their families and with others. We are at a very diverse DC public school and here are some things I have observed my son do:

1) the OK sign held down on the leg. When asked where he learned it, what he thinks it means, who at school does it, he says he doesn't know, they think it's funny, it doesn't mean anything and many friends do it (of all races). I have told him it can be a white power symbol and absolutely must never do it.
2) joking around playing fortnite online with friends and saying, oh are you triggered? Again, he says that everyone says it and it doesn't mean anything. Again long talk about what tiriggering means and why it's not a joke. (we have PTSD military family members so that was pretty simple to connect for him.)
3) were just at some chain restaurant with 1000 TVs and one shows a commercial with kids playing ball, argument, white boy is picked on by larger brown and diverse kids, sits sad and alone until a white girl comes along and they solve the problem (no sound so I couldn't figure out what the drama was). Turns out it is some "values" org showing this ad on Fox News channel. We had a conversation about what the ad is doing by showing the white boy being ganged up on by a diverse group of kids. He is a pretty sensitive kid, so his first instinct was to feel bad for the kid (of course that is okay) but miss the insidious and subtle undertext.

Seriously this stuff is out there and very very scary.

DP. Re #3, it may be a subliminal white supremacist ad, I don't know, but I would also note that diversity is the norm on TV and in ads but that white kids cannot be shown picking on POC kids. So in an ad about helping outcast kids, only white kids can be shown to be picked on or outcast. As you point out, this doesn't send a great message. But neither would the reverse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, I don't have time right now to read the original article, so forgive me for jumping in. BUT I have an 11 year old boy and am really following this closely since I first saw it a few months ago. I can't believe how insidious some of these messages are, so hats off to everyone who is preaching awareness, both in their families and with others. We are at a very diverse DC public school and here are some things I have observed my son do:

1) the OK sign held down on the leg. When asked where he learned it, what he thinks it means, who at school does it, he says he doesn't know, they think it's funny, it doesn't mean anything and many friends do it (of all races). I have told him it can be a white power symbol and absolutely must never do it.
2) joking around playing fortnite online with friends and saying, oh are you triggered? Again, he says that everyone says it and it doesn't mean anything. Again long talk about what tiriggering means and why it's not a joke. (we have PTSD military family members so that was pretty simple to connect for him.)
3) were just at some chain restaurant with 1000 TVs and one shows a commercial with kids playing ball, argument, white boy is picked on by larger brown and diverse kids, sits sad and alone until a white girl comes along and they solve the problem (no sound so I couldn't figure out what the drama was). Turns out it is some "values" org showing this ad on Fox News channel. We had a conversation about what the ad is doing by showing the white boy being ganged up on by a diverse group of kids. He is a pretty sensitive kid, so his first instinct was to feel bad for the kid (of course that is okay) but miss the insidious and subtle undertext.

Seriously this stuff is out there and very very scary.

DP. Re #3, it may be a subliminal white supremacist ad, I don't know, but I would also note that diversity is the norm on TV and in ads but that white kids cannot be shown picking on POC kids. So in an ad about helping outcast kids, only white kids can be shown to be picked on or outcast. As you point out, this doesn't send a great message. But neither would the reverse.

WTF? Can you read? The message is that the white kid is victimized by kids of color. Never okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
1) the OK sign held down on the leg. When asked where he learned it, what he thinks it means, who at school does it, he says he doesn't know, they think it's funny, it doesn't mean anything and many friends do it (of all races). I have told him it can be a white power symbol and absolutely must never do it.

Mom-like typing detected. This is the circle game; it was around for a long time before last year when someone in the media decided to try and freak people out.

I'd be more concerned about Dungeons and Dragons being the gateway to devil worship.