Faith and the Reward of Heaven

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

I get that, but to me, focusing on God's forgiveness/salvation/saving/etc in this life is pretty pointless. If you believe in God, they're going to judge what they're going to judge when you die.

The focus to me (both growing up Muslim, and as an atheist now) is making sure our actions matter to our fellow humans. If we work in accordance with our communities, the rest will work itself out.

I don't think all Christians are stupid, but surely you know that there are some people who will abuse tenets in their favor, to justify whatever. But people will find a loophole to justify sh!tty behavior in all religions, not just Christianity. What I think some people are alluding to is the "accept Jesus as your savior before you die and you get in to heaven" thing. You live a crappy, hurtful life to others for 70 years, and in your last month/days you repent and you get into heaven? WTF?! I can't believe in any system that works like that.

You don’t have to believe. You aren’t being forced to believe. The only thing you should do- but still not forced to do- is accept that we all worship in different ways and believe different things. Christianity clearly doesn’t make sense to you, as you have stated in comment after comment. I understand that, but that doesn’t change Christianity or anyone else’s belief in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

I'm sorry that you are that insecure in your belief, that you cannot understand someone's specific question about a specific religion. And that while there is disagreement, is a pretty respectful conversation. The only one being nasty and jumping to angry conclusions is you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

I'm sorry that you are that insecure in your belief, that you cannot understand someone's specific question about a specific religion. And that while there is disagreement, is a pretty respectful conversation. The only one being nasty and jumping to angry conclusions is you.

You keep on revealing your deeply unhappy state of mind/spirit. You judged Christians, not members of other religions, most of which include a promise of a reward. Why not discuss the notion of reward in Islam?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

John 15:18-25 “This I command you, that you love one another. If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you’re not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this, the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’”


Take heart, our Lord taught us this. We know how it will be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

I get that, but to me, focusing on God's forgiveness/salvation/saving/etc in this life is pretty pointless. If you believe in God, they're going to judge what they're going to judge when you die.

The focus to me (both growing up Muslim, and as an atheist now) is making sure our actions matter to our fellow humans. If we work in accordance with our communities, the rest will work itself out.

I don't think all Christians are stupid, but surely you know that there are some people who will abuse tenets in their favor, to justify whatever. But people will find a loophole to justify sh!tty behavior in all religions, not just Christianity. What I think some people are alluding to is the "accept Jesus as your savior before you die and you get in to heaven" thing. You live a crappy, hurtful life to others for 70 years, and in your last month/days you repent and you get into heaven? WTF?! I can't believe in any system that works like that.



I understand what you're saying, and that the entire concept does not appeal to you. But there is no "loophole." You seem to think people deliberately decide to act badly and then "decide" to become Christian to "get out of jail" so to speak. However, the whole point of repentance is to be genuine. So #1, I think it is really rare for someone to say to themselves "I'm going to be a bad person... on purpose!" The vast majority of people try to be good. Someone who is purposely trying to be a bad person is probably not interested in ever being good. #2. How can repentance be genuine if you are planning out your trajectory of being bad to being good? and #3. whether you are complacent or not, again, has nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is about following Jesus and if you are modestly successful at that you will not be complacent and you will not be "abusing tenets." I think your viewpoint is based on the Christians you have known in your life and Christians tend to be sort of horrible (ie unsuccessful at Christianity), so I guess I can't blame you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

I get that, but to me, focusing on God's forgiveness/salvation/saving/etc in this life is pretty pointless. If you believe in God, they're going to judge what they're going to judge when you die.

The focus to me (both growing up Muslim, and as an atheist now) is making sure our actions matter to our fellow humans. If we work in accordance with our communities, the rest will work itself out.

I don't think all Christians are stupid, but surely you know that there are some people who will abuse tenets in their favor, to justify whatever. But people will find a loophole to justify sh!tty behavior in all religions, not just Christianity. What I think some people are alluding to is the "accept Jesus as your savior before you die and you get in to heaven" thing. You live a crappy, hurtful life to others for 70 years, and in your last month/days you repent and you get into heaven? WTF?! I can't believe in any system that works like that.

You don’t have to believe. You aren’t being forced to believe. The only thing you should do- but still not forced to do- is accept that we all worship in different ways and believe different things. Christianity clearly doesn’t make sense to you, as you have stated in comment after comment. I understand that, but that doesn’t change Christianity or anyone else’s belief in it.

We agree to disagree.

Thank you for understanding that though someone does not agree or has difficulty understanding a perspective, that it doesn't make them some kind of hate-monger. A lot of times people on this forum take an inability to agree philosophically, as some kind of personal attack.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

I'm sorry that you are that insecure in your belief, that you cannot understand someone's specific question about a specific religion. And that while there is disagreement, is a pretty respectful conversation. The only one being nasty and jumping to angry conclusions is you.

You keep on revealing your deeply unhappy state of mind/spirit. You judged Christians, not members of other religions, most of which include a promise of a reward. Why not discuss the notion of reward in Islam?

I am not OP. People were having a pretty civil discussion, and then you came along jumping to conclusions. If you have a question, feel free to start your own new post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

You are super defensive.

Why are you taking everything so personally? Afraid we're might be on to something?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

When will morons keep hopping into threads without reading them?

You are super nasty, which reveals a lot about your state of spirit/mind. The OP clearly stated: "I am skeptical of many Christians is because it seems like they are only "in it" for the eternal reward and avoidance of eternal damnation."
He did not insert Islam, Mormonism, Shintoism, Hinduism, or another religion in that sentence.

I'm sorry that you are that insecure in your belief, that you cannot understand someone's specific question about a specific religion. And that while there is disagreement, is a pretty respectful conversation. The only one being nasty and jumping to angry conclusions is you.

You keep on revealing your deeply unhappy state of mind/spirit. You judged Christians, not members of other religions, most of which include a promise of a reward. Why not discuss the notion of reward in Islam?

I am not OP. People were having a pretty civil discussion, and then you came along jumping to conclusions. If you have a question, feel free to start your own new post.

I'll do whatever I want. you are not a manager here. I simply stated that OP should have equally discussed promise of reward in other religions too. Focusing negatively on Christianity reveals a malicious intent. He did not say how promise of eternal life and reward of 40 virgins in Islam does not make sense to him. He did emphasize how Christian promise of eternal life makes no sense to him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

I get that, but to me, focusing on God's forgiveness/salvation/saving/etc in this life is pretty pointless. If you believe in God, they're going to judge what they're going to judge when you die.

The focus to me (both growing up Muslim, and as an atheist now) is making sure our actions matter to our fellow humans. If we work in accordance with our communities, the rest will work itself out.

I don't think all Christians are stupid, but surely you know that there are some people who will abuse tenets in their favor, to justify whatever. But people will find a loophole to justify sh!tty behavior in all religions, not just Christianity. What I think some people are alluding to is the "accept Jesus as your savior before you die and you get in to heaven" thing. You live a crappy, hurtful life to others for 70 years, and in your last month/days you repent and you get into heaven? WTF?! I can't believe in any system that works like that.

You don’t have to believe. You aren’t being forced to believe. The only thing you should do- but still not forced to do- is accept that we all worship in different ways and believe different things. Christianity clearly doesn’t make sense to you, as you have stated in comment after comment. I understand that, but that doesn’t change Christianity or anyone else’s belief in it.

We agree to disagree.

Thank you for understanding that though someone does not agree or has difficulty understanding a perspective, that it doesn't make them some kind of hate-monger. A lot of times people on this forum take an inability to agree philosophically, as some kind of personal attack.

I completely agree. I don’t think you hate Christianity.

I don’t have a problem with those who question or reject Christianity. I just dislike it when people here think I should reject it based on their rejection of it.

[Anonymous]

OP here...

Just to clarify, it was the Christians the other post that I was specifically thinking of. They seem to be the most focused on an afterlife and post-life rewards and consequences.

Of course, I include all other people in faiths that are equally focused on the afterlife that I am equally skeptical of.

I just wonder what these people would be like if they weren't promised an afterlife?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here...

Just to clarify, it was the Christians the other post that I was specifically thinking of. They seem to be the most focused on an afterlife and post-life rewards and consequences.

Of course, I include all other people in faiths that are equally focused on the afterlife that I am equally skeptical of.

I just wonder what these people would be like if they weren't promised an afterlife?

What other religions are you thinking of that have afterlife "incentive"?
One that comes to my mind was an ancient Egyptian religion. They built majestic pyramided just because of the promise of afterlife. Crazy, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here...

Just to clarify, it was the Christians the other post that I was specifically thinking of. They seem to be the most focused on an afterlife and post-life rewards and consequences.

Of course, I include all other people in faiths that are equally focused on the afterlife that I am equally skeptical of.

I just wonder what these people would be like if they weren't promised an afterlife?

Some people might think that’s the point! If there was no hope, no promise of an afterlife, what human would live for a purpose greater than they could achieve on earth?