Faith and the Reward of Heaven

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

All religions tend to "attract" broken people who are looking for answers or want to feel better. Inevitably people are going to fall below our standards. But it's not like a scammer can "fool" God. God theoretically created the universe.

I do not know what role redemption plays in Islam if any, so I can't speak to that. However, redemption is a very important part of the Christian story. Paul was a fanatic who supported the killing of Christians, and was someone who today would have been an ISIS supporter or something like that, that was the depths of his fanaticism. But he redeemed himself and became a pillar of the Church. Peter was a lowly fisherman and made a big show about telling Jesus he was God, but when Jesus was captured by the Romans he turned his back on him and he denied he ever knew him. IE he was a coward. But he redeemed himself as well, and became another pillar of the church. The thief on the cross also redeemed himself when he showed compassion to Jesus. Redemption just comes up over and over and over. There are no scales, no weighing of your good actions vs. your bad (an ancient concept that even the ancient Egyptians believed in). There is only an understanding that we are all sinners, and nobody is truly "good."

But this is very important: redemption in Christianity is not a freebie get out of jail free card. There needs to be a genuine feeling of repentance and an understanding of your past sins, and an effort to correct what you have done wrong. There is also an understanding that no person, no matter how hard they try, is perfect. Evangelicals say that if you accept Jesus your sins are cleared (I am not an Evangelical and do not subscribe to their theology), but it is never the end of the story. With that faith in Jesus should also come a love for Jesus, and a love for the people around you. And if you genuinely love the people around you, you will feel real sorrow over the hurt you have caused. In other words, a murderer can be redeemed, but if his faith is real he is going to feel a great amount of sorrow over what he has done. If he is shallow or just "using" Christianity, it's not like you can fool God. Only God will judge.

My belief is that we are here to create Heaven on Earth through our relationship with Jesus. What happens after I die is somewhat secondary, because I can never know exactly what happens after I die. I don't know what Heaven is like or whether there is a purgatory or whatever. My responsibility is to live my life and do the best I can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

God forgives you, but if you keep killing or stealing or raping he understands you aren’t repentant. There’s no change in you if you ask for forgiveness and commit to God’s word but continue to murder people.

God is no fool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

All religions tend to "attract" broken people who are looking for answers or want to feel better. Inevitably people are going to fall below our standards. But it's not like a scammer can "fool" God. God theoretically created the universe.

I do not know what role redemption plays in Islam if any, so I can't speak to that. However, redemption is a very important part of the Christian story. Paul was a fanatic who supported the killing of Christians, and was someone who today would have been an ISIS supporter or something like that, that was the depths of his fanaticism. But he redeemed himself and became a pillar of the Church. Peter was a lowly fisherman and made a big show about telling Jesus he was God, but when Jesus was captured by the Romans he turned his back on him and he denied he ever knew him. IE he was a coward. But he redeemed himself as well, and became another pillar of the church. The thief on the cross also redeemed himself when he showed compassion to Jesus. Redemption just comes up over and over and over. There are no scales, no weighing of your good actions vs. your bad (an ancient concept that even the ancient Egyptians believed in). There is only an understanding that we are all sinners, and nobody is truly "good."

But this is very important: redemption in Christianity is not a freebie get out of jail free card. There needs to be a genuine feeling of repentance and an understanding of your past sins, and an effort to correct what you have done wrong. There is also an understanding that no person, no matter how hard they try, is perfect. Evangelicals say that if you accept Jesus your sins are cleared (I am not an Evangelical and do not subscribe to their theology), but it is never the end of the story. With that faith in Jesus should also come a love for Jesus, and a love for the people around you. And if you genuinely love the people around you, you will feel real sorrow over the hurt you have caused. In other words, a murderer can be redeemed, but if his faith is real he is going to feel a great amount of sorrow over what he has done. If he is shallow or just "using" Christianity, it's not like you can fool God. Only God will judge.

My belief is that we are here to create Heaven on Earth through our relationship with Jesus. What happens after I die is somewhat secondary, because I can never know exactly what happens after I die. I don't know what Heaven is like or whether there is a purgatory or whatever. My responsibility is to live my life and do the best I can.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

God forgives you, but if you keep killing or stealing or raping he understands you aren’t repentant. There’s no change in you if you ask for forgiveness and commit to God’s word but continue to murder people.

God is no fool.

I know that'a an essential belief in Christianity, but from my perspective, "God forgives you" is preemptive. You don't know until you die. And relying on "God forgives you" in this life, can cause people to become complacent on truly doing better than their past, or really reflecting on the ramifications of their past actions.

Again, I don't believe in God, period. What we grow up in, colors our perspective. I have always found the "God forgives you" thing to be really, really weird. What matters most in the present is our fellow humans. That is the only value we can know and work towards bettering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Heaven is open to all, regardless of wealth or lack of, race, sex, age, etc. All that is required is you accept that Jesus made the sacrifice for you.



Jesus will raise you up to the last day. The last day you are on earth, Jesus will still save you if you accept Him as Lord.

The above is what turns me off from Christianity and all religions that proselytize.

There is only one God, you don't need to accept Jesus to get to God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

God forgives you, but if you keep killing or stealing or raping he understands you aren’t repentant. There’s no change in you if you ask for forgiveness and commit to God’s word but continue to murder people.

God is no fool.

I know that'a an essential belief in Christianity, but from my perspective, "God forgives you" is preemptive. You don't know until you die. And relying on "God forgives you" in this life, can cause people to become complacent on truly doing better than their past, or really reflecting on the ramifications of their past actions.

Again, I don't believe in God, period. What we grow up in, colors our perspective. I have always found the "God forgives you" thing to be really, really weird. What matters most in the present is our fellow humans. That is the only value we can know and work towards bettering.

I appreciate that you recognize that Christianity has essential beliefs, and while they do not make sense to you, they do for Christians.

Christians can be sure of salvation through the blood of Christ.

I hope you can find comfort in your path. As a Christian I strongly believe and place my faith in Christ, but wish no ill to my fellow man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

All religions tend to "attract" broken people who are looking for answers or want to feel better. Inevitably people are going to fall below our standards. But it's not like a scammer can "fool" God. God theoretically created the universe.

I do not know what role redemption plays in Islam if any, so I can't speak to that. However, redemption is a very important part of the Christian story. Paul was a fanatic who supported the killing of Christians, and was someone who today would have been an ISIS supporter or something like that, that was the depths of his fanaticism. But he redeemed himself and became a pillar of the Church. Peter was a lowly fisherman and made a big show about telling Jesus he was God, but when Jesus was captured by the Romans he turned his back on him and he denied he ever knew him. IE he was a coward. But he redeemed himself as well, and became another pillar of the church. The thief on the cross also redeemed himself when he showed compassion to Jesus. Redemption just comes up over and over and over. There are no scales, no weighing of your good actions vs. your bad (an ancient concept that even the ancient Egyptians believed in). There is only an understanding that we are all sinners, and nobody is truly "good."

But this is very important: redemption in Christianity is not a freebie get out of jail free card. There needs to be a genuine feeling of repentance and an understanding of your past sins, and an effort to correct what you have done wrong. There is also an understanding that no person, no matter how hard they try, is perfect. Evangelicals say that if you accept Jesus your sins are cleared (I am not an Evangelical and do not subscribe to their theology), but it is never the end of the story. With that faith in Jesus should also come a love for Jesus, and a love for the people around you. And if you genuinely love the people around you, you will feel real sorrow over the hurt you have caused. In other words, a murderer can be redeemed, but if his faith is real he is going to feel a great amount of sorrow over what he has done. If he is shallow or just "using" Christianity, it's not like you can fool God. Only God will judge.

My belief is that we are here to create Heaven on Earth through our relationship with Jesus. What happens after I die is somewhat secondary, because I can never know exactly what happens after I die. I don't know what Heaven is like or whether there is a purgatory or whatever. My responsibility is to live my life and do the best I can.

OP here, and thank you for taking the time to contribute. I do no claim to be a Christian, but you are a clear example to my "skepticism." Your points about redemptions are very well made and what makes Christianity so unique. The idea that a person should not, actually, be eternally damned for their past. That we can change, and we should forgive. I am very much a believer in those ideals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Heaven is open to all, regardless of wealth or lack of, race, sex, age, etc. All that is required is you accept that Jesus made the sacrifice for you.



Jesus will raise you up to the last day. The last day you are on earth, Jesus will still save you if you accept Him as Lord.

The above is what turns me off from Christianity and all religions that proselytize.

There is only one God, you don't need to accept Jesus to get to God.

Jesus is not separate from God. Jesus is God. It is like the three states of water- ice, water, steam. God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit- all God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Heaven is open to all, regardless of wealth or lack of, race, sex, age, etc. All that is required is you accept that Jesus made the sacrifice for you.



Jesus will raise you up to the last day. The last day you are on earth, Jesus will still save you if you accept Him as Lord.

The above is what turns me off from Christianity and all religions that proselytize.

There is only one God, you don't need to accept Jesus to get to God.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16 ESV / 13 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 1:14 ESV / 13 helpful votes

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Acts 4:12 ESV / 11 helpful votes

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Matthew 11:27 ESV / 11 helpful votes

All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Romans 3:23 ESV / 10 helpful votes

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

John 8:32 ESV / 10 helpful votes

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 6:44 ESV / 10 helpful votes

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 1:17 ESV / 10 helpful votes

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 10:9 ESV / 9 helpful votes

I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 1:1 ESV / 9 helpful votes

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 John 5:20 ESV / 8 helpful votes

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Hebrews 9:8 ESV / 8 helpful votes

By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing

Ephesians 2:18 ESV / 8 helpful votes

For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:1-31 ESV / 8 helpful votes

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ...

Colossians 2:9 ESV / 7 helpful votes

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

Romans 6:23 ESV / 7 helpful votes

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 11:25 ESV / 7 helpful votes

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

John 1:4 ESV / 7 helpful votes

In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Revelation 20:15 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

1 John 1:8 ESV / 6 helpful votes

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:1-2 ESV / 6 helpful votes

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us—

Hebrews 7:25 ESV / 6 helpful votes

Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 10:9 ESV / 6 helpful votes

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 1:18 ESV / 6 helpful votes

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Revelation 1:1-8:13 ESV / 5 helpful votes

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...

Hebrews 10:20 ESV / 5 helpful votes

By the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 5 helpful votes

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:19 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

John 3:3 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Psalm 23:1-6 ESV / 5 helpful votes

A Psalm of David. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. ...

If we are speaking of Christianity, this is wha Christians believe. op started this thread about redemption in Christianity.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

God forgives you, but if you keep killing or stealing or raping he understands you aren’t repentant. There’s no change in you if you ask for forgiveness and commit to God’s word but continue to murder people.

God is no fool.

I know that'a an essential belief in Christianity, but from my perspective, "God forgives you" is preemptive. You don't know until you die. And relying on "God forgives you" in this life, can cause people to become complacent on truly doing better than their past, or really reflecting on the ramifications of their past actions.

Again, I don't believe in God, period. What we grow up in, colors our perspective. I have always found the "God forgives you" thing to be really, really weird. What matters most in the present is our fellow humans. That is the only value we can know and work towards bettering.

I appreciate that you recognize that Christianity has essential beliefs, and while they do not make sense to you, they do for Christians.

Christians can be sure of salvation through the blood of Christ.

I hope you can find comfort in your path. As a Christian I strongly believe and place my faith in Christ, but wish no ill to my fellow man.

You place your faith because you wish not to go to heaven. Doesn't that sound selfish?

What if you discovered there wasn't a heaven, what part of your faith would you maintain? Any?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That is the attitude of most religions with belief in an afterlife.

What seems disturbing to me about the most prevalent belief in Christianity, is that you accept Jesus as your lord and savior and all your prior sins are cleared. You could have murdered children and raped women, and stolen from the destitute, abused the helpless... and you're clear because you repent? That is not a God I could ever, ever believe in.

I was raised Muslim, and was taught that it's more about tipping the scales. Whether or not you get to heaven is about the actions overall. You don't repent, and then the slate is wiped clean - the scale is always calculating. You have to be conscientious, always. Everything matters every minute of every day, and all your deeds will be weighed when you die.

That said, I no longer believe in religion or any Gods, but the latter seemed like a much more palatable, just and fair pill to swallow.

I think it is beautiful that God gives the opportunity of redemption to even a hardened sinner.

Think of Jesus on the cross. The sinner at His side who repented and believed was told by Christ that today he woukd be with Jesus in paradise.

That hopefulness that even the most worthless soul can be redeemed by good and through God's love and mercy is a wonderful and beautiful thing and far better than a god who is al about vengeance, punishment and an eye for an eye.

I don't find it beautiful. I think it tends to attract a corrupt person who isn't really conscientious of their actions, and doesn't care about others, because they'll be "saved." I think it appeals to certain people who are more selfishly minded, and I understand the appeal. But I don't understand it from perspective of respect for your fellow humanity.

The goal of God is salvation of humanity. All people. All races. God doesn’t discriminate. If that’s selfish then what is fairness?

Fairness, as I was taught, is the sum of the actions in your lifetime. Not a button you can reset all the time by repenting. Generally I still believe this, but without a belief in an afterlife. We can be better, we can know better with regards to our fellow humans, we can do better... but it doesn't negate our past behaviors.

But as mentioned, I no longer believe in religion. A God creating a game for his entertainment (with a goal of salvation, or what not) is absurd to me.

So if you kill another person but then do lots of good deeds you tip the scales back to your favor?

As I was taught, that's up for God to decide, and you won't know which way the scales tip until you die. But your sins are never cleared.

As an adult who doesn't believe in any religion or God, I think similarly - your slate is never wiped clean. The best you can do is learn from your mistakes and go forward to try and serve your humanity better. And when you die, you die. The end.

How many murderers and rapists actually commit such crimes and then decide to go forward and be a good person? They kill or rape and then commit to serving humanity?

No idea.

But I've always been disturbed by the idea that someone can kill and murder, accept Jesus and be "saved" and then they can go to heaven. People can talk all they want about their "heart" being different, but ultimately the proof is in the actions and the kind of person you are to your fellow humans going forward. I have always found the "saved" aspect disturbing and weird. I know it works for some people, but I'm being completely honest - I find it a pretty abhorrent perspective that many people abuse so they can avoid responsibility and reflection on their past.

As people upthread said- you can't fool God. The behavior you are describing has nothing to do with Christianity. People who are "abusing" the redemption story by just treating people crappy and refusing to reflect or accept responsibility for their actions can say they are doing the Christian thing all they want, but they are not. That is like me saying I am a vegetarian and eating meat everyday. I can say whatever I want, but I am not a vegetarian.

I am always amazed at how many people think Christian theology is just stupid. Like really, you think people who behave that way are following Christian doctrine properly?

I get that, but to me, focusing on God's forgiveness/salvation/saving/etc in this life is pretty pointless. If you believe in God, they're going to judge what they're going to judge when you die.

The focus to me (both growing up Muslim, and as an atheist now) is making sure our actions matter to our fellow humans. If we work in accordance with our communities, the rest will work itself out.

I don't think all Christians are stupid, but surely you know that there are some people who will abuse tenets in their favor, to justify whatever. But people will find a loophole to justify sh!tty behavior in all religions, not just Christianity. What I think some people are alluding to is the "accept Jesus as your savior before you die and you get in to heaven" thing. You live a crappy, hurtful life to others for 70 years, and in your last month/days you repent and you get into heaven? WTF?! I can't believe in any system that works like that.

[Anonymous]

Another thread that attacks Christianity? You have a psychological problem. Even an uneducated person knows that every religion has a promise of a better place. In Islam for example you are promised 40 virgins in heaven.

[Anonymous]

There is a heaven to me. There’s no part of me that doubts heavens exists.

In my faith and embrace of God, I have zero doubts.

In my faith and embrace of God, all are able to be at peace with our creator.

If peace and paradise for all is selfish to you, I can’t convince you otherwise.