Positive Discipline isn't working...

[Anonymous]

What on earth is wrong with "no?" The world is full of "no" kids need to learn that early on. This is why we have so many brats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You'd be surprised that if you leave 2 year olds alone, they can navigate some of this stuff. One will take a toy from the other, the other will figure out something else to play with. It's when grown-ups intervene that things get more screamy and stressful. Generally it is the adults in the room projecting their embarrassment when one 2 year old "steals" a toy from another.

I'm not talking about ALL negative behavior (like hitting/pushing off toys). But 2 year olds CAN learn on their own how to share toys in their own way, and in this way actually develop social skills.

OP, do you have your child in any sort of formal preschool program? Good preschool teachers know how to navigate this stuff very well.

I disagree with this. I mean, sure, one kid takes from the other and the other might find something else to do. But it is wrong to allow the taker to take and to teach the one taken from that this is how it is supposed to be. That is not going to promote sharing, it just cements an unfair power dynamic. So what if things get more 'screamy and stressful'. It's our job to teach and socialize them, not just let them go for it so the bigger, stronger kid is always the winner.

I think you misunderstand social skills. Gaining social skills means learning to resolve conflict -- which is something 2 year olds can begin to learn to do on their own. It doesn't mean "grown ups step in and prevent any conflict." In that sense, promoting sharing in and of itself actually isn't the end goal. The end goal is for your child to learn the social dynamics and HOW to share. You're being a little dramatic to call a 2 year old taking a toy from another an "unfair power dynamic." Because if you let those 2 year olds be, what you'd see (sometimes) is that a second after A takes it from B, B takes it back or A gives it back. That's what skilled daycare/preschool teachers do. They're certainly not standing over 2 year olds patrolling for "unfair power dynamics."

Again, I'm not saying you should let 2 year olds be totally wild; there are limits. But I've seen the dynamic many times where moms hover anxiously over toddlers to patrol for "sharing" when the kids are unphased, and are prevented from learning to work it out themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

I don't think you understand what positive discipline is. Positive discipline could include what you describe (although it's a big harsh and not likely to work as the child gets older ... your kid is only 2.5!). Positive discipline really means the addition of reinforcing the behavior you want to see; not just punishing the bad behavior. Also what you describe doesn't really help for "smaller" things like not sharing a toy ... are you really going to have a long, stern conversation every time two 2 year olds tussle over blocks? Positive discipline is also about giving your kid a chance to correct their behavior and practice the appropriate behavior in realtime.

For smaller things you let the kids work it out. But for things more significant than a tussle over blocks, yes there is a stern conversation. I refuse to praise expected behavior. We have a conversation before entering a situation. We call it our game plan. He agrees to it and the rest is up to him. Should he deviate from what was discussed then we head outside. He was in a class that for he first few weeks we excused ourselves to the hall to have a conversation. Then it clicked. There was a marked behavior change over the 6 weeks.

Well, your household sounds like a barrel full of laughs.

[Anonymous]

Gen X mom here. When my kids were that age and didn't listen at the playground, that was it. Play time was over. We went back to the car. I explained in a nutshell why were were going home ("You took that kid's toy and wouldn't give it back after I told you three times, and that is not acceptable behavior"). Then we went home. Full stop. They learned very quickly what was not acceptable behavior.

You have to lay out the boundaries and follow through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

I don't think you understand what positive discipline is. Positive discipline could include what you describe (although it's a big harsh and not likely to work as the child gets older ... your kid is only 2.5!). Positive discipline really means the addition of reinforcing the behavior you want to see; not just punishing the bad behavior. Also what you describe doesn't really help for "smaller" things like not sharing a toy ... are you really going to have a long, stern conversation every time two 2 year olds tussle over blocks? Positive discipline is also about giving your kid a chance to correct their behavior and practice the appropriate behavior in realtime.

For smaller things you let the kids work it out. But for things more significant than a tussle over blocks, yes there is a stern conversation. I refuse to praise expected behavior. We have a conversation before entering a situation. We call it our game plan. He agrees to it and the rest is up to him. Should he deviate from what was discussed then we head outside. He was in a class that for he first few weeks we excused ourselves to the hall to have a conversation. Then it clicked. There was a marked behavior change over the 6 weeks.

Well, your household sounds like a barrel full of laughs.

I’m not raising my children in a comedy club. I’m raising them to be thoughtful adults who are considerate members of society. If you want all kicks and giggles then no wonder your children don’t listen or tantrum when you tell them no.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What on earth is wrong with "no?" The world is full of "no" kids need to learn that early on. This is why we have so many brats.

This is so annoying. Every generation thinks kids now are brats and they weren't then. There have always been and always will be brats. This post is about how to deal effectively with your own particular brat.

As explained previously, positive discipline doesn't mean never saying "no".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - you have to be physical at this age. Not spanking physical -- just enforcing physical.

She takes a toy from another child? You don't sit there and plead with her. You simply say: "Larla was using that toy. You have 2 choices. You can either wait for her to be finished with the toy, or you can play with something else" and then you take the toy from her as gently as possible, and return it to the other child. If Larla starts crying, then you can comfort her, but stay firm in returning the toy.

If she throws a full on tantrum, just say something like: "Looks like you could use a little break from playing" and then go somewhere together until she calms down a bit.

Also, consider reading "No Bad Kids". Very helpful with stuff like this.

Very good advice!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You'd be surprised that if you leave 2 year olds alone, they can navigate some of this stuff. One will take a toy from the other, the other will figure out something else to play with. It's when grown-ups intervene that things get more screamy and stressful. Generally it is the adults in the room projecting their embarrassment when one 2 year old "steals" a toy from another.

I'm not talking about ALL negative behavior (like hitting/pushing off toys). But 2 year olds CAN learn on their own how to share toys in their own way, and in this way actually develop social skills.

OP, do you have your child in any sort of formal preschool program? Good preschool teachers know how to navigate this stuff very well.

I disagree with this. I mean, sure, one kid takes from the other and the other might find something else to do. But it is wrong to allow the taker to take and to teach the one taken from that this is how it is supposed to be. That is not going to promote sharing, it just cements an unfair power dynamic. So what if things get more 'screamy and stressful'. It's our job to teach and socialize them, not just let them go for it so the bigger, stronger kid is always the winner.

I agree with this 100%. Children who grab a toy from another child with no interference learn that grabbing/taking gets them what they want and they enjoy the toy. And the other child is set up as a victim. Children need to be taught fair play. Otherwise it is fricking "Lord Of the Flies".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gen X mom here. When my kids were that age and didn't listen at the playground, that was it. Play time was over. We went back to the car. I explained in a nutshell why were were going home ("You took that kid's toy and wouldn't give it back after I told you three times, and that is not acceptable behavior"). Then we went home. Full stop. They learned very quickly what was not acceptable behavior.

You have to lay out the boundaries and follow through.

THIS

[Anonymous]

OP, positive discipline is one of those words people use to mean very different things. Can you tell us exactly what you do before, during and after a playgroup that might be contributing?

I have 26mo twins. I was a nanny and worked with many kids and I can confirm that there is a huge variation between kids in terms of need to push boundaries, social awareness, language development and impulse control. For my own kids, Twin A is pretty reserved in group situations. He has high impulse control and high social awareness. He wants to blend with the crowd. If I tell him he has to wait for a turn he might be really sad and occasionally even throw a tantrum, but he won’t try to defy me and grab the tou anyway or hit. Twin B has low impulse control and is defiant right now. He will absolutely push and grab, largely because he is still socially oblivious.

Before going into a group situation, I make sure that they have had a good meal (because twin A gets hangry and weepy) and some exercise (because twin B is very physical and functions better when we take the edge off his energy). We also talk in the car about the rules “We will have to take turns. All the toys are for sharing.”

When we are there, I tend to watch B a little more closely, but if either of them are having an issue, I give a short, clear order stated in the positive:
“Hands up”
“Leave it”
“Give space”
Then I step in to guide a little more “He’s not done with his turn. Let’s play with X or Y while we wait for a turn.”

If they melt down at any point I move them away from the action and restrain them in the stroller of baby carrier if I have to but I try not to give a lot of language or attention to tantrums.

[Anonymous]

interesting that all of these supposedly well educated parents are advocating spanking. which has the same long term effects as physical and sexual abuse. so....good job guys!

[Anonymous]

You have to catch it in the moment.

When my child went through some of these behaviors (pushing) at that age, I scooped her up and we went right home. Even if we had only been at the park for a few minutes. It took some tries, but she got the message and stopped doing it.

Zero tolerance. You have to show her that it's important to YOU that she stop doing it.

[Anonymous]

^^ signed, another Gen X mom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You have to catch it in the moment.

When my child went through some of these behaviors (pushing) at that age, I scooped her up and we went right home. Even if we had only been at the park for a few minutes. It took some tries, but she got the message and stopped doing it.

Zero tolerance. You have to show her that it's important to YOU that she stop doing it.

OP - this. You try to not say no, and then wonder why your child does not understand no as well as other kids? How does this compute in your fully adult brain??

To PPs who said oh, it's just a typical 2 y.o. - with sharing, sure, but pushing other children off a ride in order to get on that ride? That's an asshole in the making (who is never told no by positive discipline mommy).

[Anonymous]

I want to bring it back to the beginning and chime in that positive discipline does not equate to having a conversation with a 2 year old about everything. I think you can be positive and keep it simple and straightforward and firm and that is what a 2 year old needs.

I think about a family member who thinks she is doing positive discipline but she just keeps talking and talking about respect and what "we" expect in our family and it just goes on and on. I tune it out so I am pretty sure her 2 year old isn't listening either and the entire "lesson" is lost. OP, if this sounds like it could be you, then shorten up the lectures. The kid is NOT getting it.

I think there is a lot of benefit to simply being firm and setting boundaries. That may include being positive, it may include removal, it DOES include a firm tone and following through with threats. And my kids are like a PP. One only needs positive discipline. The other needs "punishment" and with her taking away things she likes or privileges works best. She isn't 2 but I just mention it to echo the previous comment about kids being different.

And I agree with other PPs that saying no or "absolutely not" or "stop" is ok. It is sometimes the most effective and completely clear way to communicate.