Positive Discipline isn't working...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

I am not sure what you are saying is "positive discipline" - the OPs example of what she does isn't all that different from what you do. Removing a child from the situation is fine, as is talking to them, but these are all forms of discipline.

Also, if we are worried about the word "positive" - positive here just means you are doing something (rather than taking something away). Positive punishment involves doing something (a time out, talking to, etc.) and negative punishment is taking something away (they lose a toy, etc.). Nothing the OP wrote suggests she is "praising" her child's challenging behavior or anything.

All of this is normal 2 year old behavior, and normal struggles of being a parent and helping children understand how to get along with others and be social beings.

[Anonymous]

OP, I have two kids. For my oldest, positive discipline worked. Praise for doing the right thing was almost all he needed.

For my second born, that does not work at all. She needs time outs, clear limits, and a stern voice. She does not listen unless I show her that I can physically make her do what I'm asking.

Every kid is different. I much prefer positive discipline but it just did not work for my daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

Amen.

Also, repeated defiance will earn a spanking in our house.

Yes, in our family too.

I'm sure this was designed to elicit some sort of drama, but the kid is 2 years old. She's still learning what is and isn't appropriate behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

Amen.

Also, repeated defiance will earn a spanking in our house.

Yes, in our family too.

I'm sure this was designed to elicit some sort of drama, but the kid is 2 years old. She's still learning what is and isn't appropriate behavior.

At 2 the child has an understanding of right and wrong. I have a 2 year old who knows he isn’t supposed to steal toys or push kids. Especially kids that have been in a daycare/ nanny share setting. These aren’t new concepts. Kids rise to the occasion. Set high standards and many times they meet or execeed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

I don't think you understand what positive discipline is. Positive discipline could include what you describe (although it's a big harsh and not likely to work as the child gets older ... your kid is only 2.5!). Positive discipline really means the addition of reinforcing the behavior you want to see; not just punishing the bad behavior. Also what you describe doesn't really help for "smaller" things like not sharing a toy ... are you really going to have a long, stern conversation every time two 2 year olds tussle over blocks? Positive discipline is also about giving your kid a chance to correct their behavior and practice the appropriate behavior in realtime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

Amen.

Also, repeated defiance will earn a spanking in our house.

Yes, in our family too.

I'm sure this was designed to elicit some sort of drama, but the kid is 2 years old. She's still learning what is and isn't appropriate behavior.

Not trying to elicit drama. I think in the late 2s, with clear and consistent expectations, kids know what is and isn't appropriate after a couple stern warnings. If they continue the negative behavior beyond that point, then the issue is not that they don't know that it's wrong, it's that they don't care. The punishment is not to teach that it's wrong, but to provide an adverse consequence to deter the behavior in the future.

[Anonymous]

You'd be surprised that if you leave 2 year olds alone, they can navigate some of this stuff. One will take a toy from the other, the other will figure out something else to play with. It's when grown-ups intervene that things get more screamy and stressful. Generally it is the adults in the room projecting their embarrassment when one 2 year old "steals" a toy from another.

I'm not talking about ALL negative behavior (like hitting/pushing off toys). But 2 year olds CAN learn on their own how to share toys in their own way, and in this way actually develop social skills.

OP, do you have your child in any sort of formal preschool program? Good preschool teachers know how to navigate this stuff very well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

Amen.

Also, repeated defiance will earn a spanking in our house.

Yes, in our family too.

I'm sure this was designed to elicit some sort of drama, but the kid is 2 years old. She's still learning what is and isn't appropriate behavior.

Not trying to elicit drama. I think in the late 2s, with clear and consistent expectations, kids know what is and isn't appropriate after a couple stern warnings. If they continue the negative behavior beyond that point, then the issue is not that they don't know that it's wrong, it's that they don't care. The punishment is not to teach that it's wrong, but to provide an adverse consequence to deter the behavior in the future.

That works for some kids. For other kids it's a recipe for a spiral of bad behavior. 2 year olds (and even 3 year olds) do not have the impulse control of adults, or even 5 year olds. They may "know" that it is behavior that makes the grownups mad; but it's a long way from there to anticipating it and developing the impulse control not to do it. It's not that "they don't care." They're not little sociopaths.

[Anonymous]

Time to start time outs OP. She is old enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You'd be surprised that if you leave 2 year olds alone, they can navigate some of this stuff. One will take a toy from the other, the other will figure out something else to play with. It's when grown-ups intervene that things get more screamy and stressful. Generally it is the adults in the room projecting their embarrassment when one 2 year old "steals" a toy from another.

I'm not talking about ALL negative behavior (like hitting/pushing off toys). But 2 year olds CAN learn on their own how to share toys in their own way, and in this way actually develop social skills.

OP, do you have your child in any sort of formal preschool program? Good preschool teachers know how to navigate this stuff very well.

I disagree with this. I mean, sure, one kid takes from the other and the other might find something else to do. But it is wrong to allow the taker to take and to teach the one taken from that this is how it is supposed to be. That is not going to promote sharing, it just cements an unfair power dynamic. So what if things get more 'screamy and stressful'. It's our job to teach and socialize them, not just let them go for it so the bigger, stronger kid is always the winner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

I don't think you understand what positive discipline is. Positive discipline could include what you describe (although it's a big harsh and not likely to work as the child gets older ... your kid is only 2.5!). Positive discipline really means the addition of reinforcing the behavior you want to see; not just punishing the bad behavior. Also what you describe doesn't really help for "smaller" things like not sharing a toy ... are you really going to have a long, stern conversation every time two 2 year olds tussle over blocks? Positive discipline is also about giving your kid a chance to correct their behavior and practice the appropriate behavior in realtime.

For smaller things you let the kids work it out. But for things more significant than a tussle over blocks, yes there is a stern conversation. I refuse to praise expected behavior. We have a conversation before entering a situation. We call it our game plan. He agrees to it and the rest is up to him. Should he deviate from what was discussed then we head outside. He was in a class that for he first few weeks we excused ourselves to the hall to have a conversation. Then it clicked. There was a marked behavior change over the 6 weeks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD is two (27 months) and very, very active and spirited. When we go to a play date or this one play group, I have noticed that she is the only child who doesn't seem to understand no or taking turns. If another child has something she wants she takes it and will not give it back. She will knock/pull another kid off a riding toy if she wants it. None of the other kids - all her exact age practically - do this. To get her to give something back or let someone else have their turn, I actually have to physically restrain her.

What do I do? I tell her I understand it is hard for her to share or take turns and I try not to say no - but she is stubborn and simply wants what she wants.

What do I do now? TIA

You need to say "no". Then redirect to another toy or remove her from the room if she has a tantrum. And repeat and repeat and repeat. Keep it simple. IME, when parents are trying to avoid saying 'no', they end up talking too much, explaining, etc. and not giving the message in a way their young children can understand. If you don't like "no" for some reason, then "stop" or "not now"

+1

Keep it short and simple. It's good to frame it positively, in the sense that you tell your child what you want them to do, not what you want them not to do. "Larla, it's Jane's turn to play with the toy now. Give the toy back." "No pushing. You wait for your turn." It's okay to say no, or stop. (Actually, I like "stop" better if the kid is still engaging in the activity, because it tells the kid what you want them to do.) But it's important not to talk too much.

Also, hitting or pushing another person results in immediate removal from the situation--if my kid hit or pushed another kid, we immediately left the park/play room/whatever. Anything less than that, you help/make her give the toy back, praise her for giving the toy back, and redirect. If you know your kid is prone to this, then you are on her like white on rice, so that you can intervene *before* she grabs/pushes.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't take the toy out of her hand, I would try to prevent her from grabbing in the first place. Taking it gives a confusing message to a child that's very concrete and literal -- they are so focused on the fact you took their toy away, they can't understand that the message is "don't take other people's toys," if you know what I mean. Shadow her closely and if she reaches for someone else's toy, restrain her hand and say, "it's X's turn. X is playing with it." If X offers her the toy, say "wow, X, I like that you offered the toy! Thank you so much." The message is, we don't interrupt other's play to grab their toys but we can share if that's what we want to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Positive discipline is snake oil in my opinion. It makes you think you are overcoming something when really the outcome remains unchanged. We physically remove our 2.5 year old from the situation whether It be a restaurant, play date or outing. Take them outside on the sidewalk, get on their level, hold their chin so they are looking you directly in the eyes and have a very stern conversation. This conversation doesn’t end until the child repeats back what the poor behavior was, agreed to stop, apologizes, and walks in holding your hand. This has worked for about a year now.

Amen.

Also, repeated defiance will earn a spanking in our house.

Yes, in our family too.

I'm sure this was designed to elicit some sort of drama, but the kid is 2 years old. She's still learning what is and isn't appropriate behavior.

At 2 the child has an understanding of right and wrong. I have a 2 year old who knows he isn’t supposed to steal toys or push kids. Especially kids that have been in a daycare/ nanny share setting. These aren’t new concepts. Kids rise to the occasion. Set high standards and many times they meet or execeed them.

Yes, a 2 year old knows right and wrong, but that doesn't mean they have the self-control to successfully execute it.

So at that age, you must physically help them stop doing what you don't want them to do.

I would use words ONE time and give her a chance to comply, and then intervene.

[Anonymous]

We started 1-2-3 Magic at 2 1/2, with a 2-minute timeout when we get to three. Works well for us. Some kids need a little time to process and respond, hence the counting. The timeout "resets" him.