Talking about *The Bad* Kid in Class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would encourage as much empathy as possible.

It sounds like this poor child might be one of the many whose IEPs have not yet gotten to their teachers (from another thread). And the teachers are caught flat-footed without the resources they need to make this work.

So in essense they have been set up to fail spectacularly in front of an audience of their peers. And once they have been labeled as the bad kid, maybe they will get the supports that their parents have been working so hard to get in place for them.

I would agree with the PPs idea of empathy- it sounds like Larlo is having a tough time, we all need extra help sometimes.

But do let the teacher know, they are often fighting alongside the parents of the struggling child for the appropriate support.

I agree. I can't even begin to wrap my head around how teachers keep track of everyone's specific needs and what action or support they are supposed to provide in the heat of a stressful moment when they have 19 others to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my kid, "You worry about YOURSELF" stop worrying about what others are doing, you can't control your surroundings and if you need a perfect environment to do well you are never going to get that.

Do your work, worry about yourself and stop paying attention to the other kids.

"But the kid is loud"
Worry about yourself.
"But the kid breaks things"
Worry about yourself
"but the kids eats his bugger"
Worry about yourself
"But he burps his alphabet"
Okay, that one is cool, ask for lessons on the playground.

I don't think you are understanding the other kid is attacking classmates, screaming, and smashing things. It is hard for a 5 year old to start kindergarten and witness that. Would you be able to work if you had someone attacking coworkers, smashing things, and screaming around you? Would you dread going to the office! What if your boss said in response to your complaints, "worry about yourself".

Screaming and smashing...yes... "Worry about yourself"

Hitting (I doubt there is an "attack" unless he has forces)

I say....
1. Walk away.
2. Say, you may not play with me if you hit me.
3. Tell the teacher.

If one of that works...
4. I go see the teacher and ask for advice... Don't accuse or assume I have he correct story.
5. (And it has gotten to this twice ) defend yourself.

Kids need to learn to navigate this world or they will be eaten alive in middle school.

The idea that is this is highly unusual is silly. Kids do still hit in K. They cry, they yell they call out, they are physical... This is actually pretty normal.

For all 3 of my kids this happened in their classroom. It is not PC to teacher your kids to worry about themselves... They need to learn what THEY can do, they can not change other people... That is a fact not PC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would encourage as much empathy as possible.

It sounds like this poor child might be one of the many whose IEPs have not yet gotten to their teachers (from another thread). And the teachers are caught flat-footed without the resources they need to make this work.

So in essense they have been set up to fail spectacularly in front of an audience of their peers. And once they have been labeled as the bad kid, maybe they will get the supports that their parents have been working so hard to get in place for them.

I would agree with the PPs idea of empathy- it sounds like Larlo is having a tough time, we all need extra help sometimes.

But do let the teacher know, they are often fighting alongside the parents of the struggling child for the appropriate support.

I agree. I can't even begin to wrap my head around how teachers keep track of everyone's specific needs and what action or support they are supposed to provide in the heat of a stressful moment when they have 19 others to deal with.

+ 1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC has been coming home every day talking about "the bad" kid in class - what that kid did each day that was disruptive, how many "chance" that kid got, and how much DC doesn't like school because of "the bad" kid. (The disruptive behavior ranges from attacking other kids to screaming to smashing things etc.)

So, I'm very sympathetic that it seems like this kid clearly needs behavioral intervention support (or whatever is the best fit for the needs) and hasn't received it (yet?) (kindergarten). I'm hoping the teacher/school/parents are on this & suspect that's the case -- but

1) what is the best way to talk to my DC about it - I've been trying "XX isn't *bad*, XX is trying to learn how to behave when angry/emotional/etc or learn how to follow the rules" -- (DC and sibling both responded "no XX is just bad!" what works best here?

2) don't want DC to be an disruptive environment or be upset daily by this type of behavior vs. feeling in a safe, secure, respectful environment (to use Arne Duncan's vernacular). I think it's probably not probably as disruptive as DC is conveying but it's clear there's an issue (and other parents have raised it too). I was thinking of raising it by raising question 1 with teacher as a way of broaching it, but also don't have parent/teacher conferences/easy opportunity to discuss it until November.

I typically would tell my kids at that age that they need to focus on not reporting the negative things about other people. I then add that would they want their friends to go home to their families and say that they heard that you: had a meltdown when you didn't get your way, were overtired and talked back to your mother on Saturday, pushed your brother when he grabbed your toy, etc.

[Anonymous]

I would wonder where "bad boy" is coming from as well. If it's not coming from home, is it coming from the teacher? Unfortunately, I know of several instances of teacher-led bullying which usually starts with labeling and shaming the "bad kid".

[Anonymous]

OP, I am glad you posted this b/c I have been dealing with a similar thing with my 2nd grade DD. She has been coming home complaining ____ who continually interrupts and makes a crazy learning environment, basically.

I thanked my lucky stars when she told me that her teacher was going to move desks around over this past weekend, and, lo and behold, DD was moved away from that table and put at a much better table on Monday. (I say "table" but they are 7 desks pushed together.)

I feel like we dodged a bullet. I also have so much more confidence in this teacher in that, even though I never said anything, she saw what was going on and rearranged things.

Teacher's star rises up a couple notches in my estimation! Very very pleased with how all this went down. Whew.

[Anonymous]

I would wonder where "bad boy" is coming from as well. If it's not coming from home, is it coming from the teacher? Unfortunately, I know of several instances of teacher-led bullying which usually starts with labeling and shaming the "bad kid".

I find it hard to believe that the teacher is using that term. Teachers have been trained to talk about "bad behavior" not "bad kids" for many years. I think the term is likely being passed around by the kids. If the behavior is as you describe, it is kind of understandable that they use it, but it is always good to point out that it is the behavior--not the person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, here. Thanks for the advice and thoughts.

But basic reading comprehension... in post, note, I did not use the word bad, (in fact was steering my kids away from the word) my children did, I tried to focus on saying the other child was adjusting to a new school.

The child in question is actually *attacking* other children - which has made the message 'just worry about yourself' harder to say just worry about yourself if you and your friends feel like potential *targets*), one of the teachers in the class is spending nearly all their time with just the one child, and child has been sent home from school in the middle of the day a couple times already - so it is a fairly disruptive situation. And clearly a kid that seems like he needs extra behavioral psychological help. It's not like in my other child's class where there are a couple kids who lose some behavior points etc.

Maybe you did not use it with your kids but you do use it in your post title.

And more to the point it seems like you are letting your kids use it. "Steering" them away from a word is not enough in my house. I clearly remember the first time I heard either of my children refer to a child as bad - my 3yo was talking about a child in his class and said "____ is a bad boy. He doesn't listen." He was referring to a boy with downs who just joined his class. I was understandably horrified and came down emphatically on the use of the word, "We NEVER use that word to describe a classmate or friend. NEVER." I remember him trying it out again within a few days but not since.

There are words that my children (5 & 7) know not to use or not to use in certain ways and we draw a hard line. I actually got chastised by my son the other night when he heard me call my laptop "stupid".

[Anonymous]

PP - using the word "downs" to describe someone with "down syndrome" is considered very offensive to many people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC has been coming home every day talking about "the bad" kid in class - what that kid did each day that was disruptive, how many "chance" that kid got, and how much DC doesn't like school because of "the bad" kid. (The disruptive behavior ranges from attacking other kids to screaming to smashing things etc.)

So, I'm very sympathetic that it seems like this kid clearly needs behavioral intervention support (or whatever is the best fit for the needs) and hasn't received it (yet?) (kindergarten). I'm hoping the teacher/school/parents are on this & suspect that's the case -- but

1) what is the best way to talk to my DC about it - I've been trying "XX isn't *bad*, XX is trying to learn how to behave when angry/emotional/etc or learn how to follow the rules" -- (DC and sibling both responded "no XX is just bad!" what works best here?

2) don't want DC to be an disruptive environment or be upset daily by this type of behavior vs. feeling in a safe, secure, respectful environment (to use Arne Duncan's vernacular). I think it's probably not probably as disruptive as DC is conveying but it's clear there's an issue (and other parents have raised it too). I was thinking of raising it by raising question 1 with teacher as a way of broaching it, but also don't have parent/teacher conferences/easy opportunity to discuss it until November.

OP,

If you email the teacher, s/he won't be able to respond in detail. You'll get something like - "Dear Ms. Schnock, Thank you for being an advocate for your child. Please understand that I can only address a student's needs with a parent or guardian. Please be assured that we do the best we can to keep all students in a safe environment, able to learn."

Unless something really alarming happens to your child, you have no leg to stand on in this case.

And unless the teacher is a complete dolt (and we have some in our profession), s/he is on it.

It's great that you're talking to your child, even though it may be difficult for him/her to full comprehend the situation. However, being compassionate can go a long way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP,
If the school is sending the kid home midday, this is a serious problem and they know it. I imagine the child will not be there much longer. If a teacher is spending most of her day with him, it sounds like he has already been identified in some way. Give it another week. Then, if he attacks your child, write and tell the school that you are concerned about your own child's safety. It might encourage action on the part of the school. I would not ask what the school is going to do about it. Just address the "issue" with your own child's safety.

+1
I bet the school is furiously getting together all the documentation they need in order to justify some fairly serious interventions. I think in the next few weeks one of two things will happen.
1. There will be a new aide in the classroom who will be more or less on full-time duty with that kid
2. The kid will be pulled out of that classroom and placed in a more appropriate environment.

Ultimately, the only appropriate way you can discuss this with the teacher is the way in which it directly affects your kid.
Examples:
Larla was hit by ___ Please tell me what measure will be taken to insure this does not happen again.
Larla is having difficulty in class because she isn't able to follow your instructions or participate in your planned activities because of the time that you are having to devote exclusively to on of the other students. (Don't need to say kid's name, even if you know it.)

But give another couple of weeks. I bet a solution is in the works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would encourage as much empathy as possible.

It sounds like this poor child might be one of the many whose IEPs have not yet gotten to their teachers (from another thread). And the teachers are caught flat-footed without the resources they need to make this work.

So in essense they have been set up to fail spectacularly in front of an audience of their peers. And once they have been labeled as the bad kid, maybe they will get the supports that their parents have been working so hard to get in place for them.

I would agree with the PPs idea of empathy- it sounds like Larlo is having a tough time, we all need extra help sometimes.

But do let the teacher know, they are often fighting alongside the parents of the struggling child for the appropriate support.

I agree. I can't even begin to wrap my head around how teachers keep track of everyone's specific needs and what action or support they are supposed to provide in the heat of a stressful moment when they have 19 others to deal with.

Agree! A little empathy goes a long way. My DD is seated next to a girl she perceives to be (with fairly good reason) a bully. We have talked a lot about why that girl might behave the way she does and how she may be feeling. So far, she hasn't been totally pleasant to my DD but there has been no bullying (last year she did some fairly nasty things). I'm keeping an eye on it, but I think my DD's attitude has helped cool off the situation. The girl's mother has told me that she's having a hard time at school, so I think maybe she just needs a little slack.

Perhaps the child in your son's class just needs a little space. Either way, don't ask the teacher about him or what his "problem" is (I know you didn't say you were going to do that). She can't tell you and it's none of your business. If your child truly feels unsafe (and you are not putting that in his head), then you could mention that and ask that he not be seated near the child or something. I do think sometimes parents gang up on these poor kids and they never have a chance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would tell my kid, "You worry about YOURSELF" stop worrying about what others are doing, you can't control your surroundings and if you need a perfect environment to do well you are never going to get that.

Do your work, worry about yourself and stop paying attention to the other kids.

"But the kid is loud"
Worry about yourself.
"But the kid breaks things"
Worry about yourself
"but the kids eats his bugger"
Worry about yourself
"But he burps his alphabet"
Okay, that one is cool, ask for lessons on the playground.

I don't think you are understanding the other kid is attacking classmates, screaming, and smashing things. It is hard for a 5 year old to start kindergarten and witness that. Would you be able to work if you had someone attacking coworkers, smashing things, and screaming around you? Would you dread going to the office! What if your boss said in response to your complaints, "worry about yourself".

I agree - I would personally not use the worry about yourself response. I find it dismissive of the child's feelings and I'd always want my child to know that they can come to me and be heard no matter what the issue is- even if it's kid drama. But I'm a social worker so I'm wired to think this way.

My DD sits next to a little boy who may have some behavior challenges and when she comes to me with stories or gripes about how many times he got in trouble, took her paper, or interrupted,the teacher I ask her what she thinks about it. What was it like when Larlo did X? How did you feel ( were ,you scared, annoyed, etc- name the feeling). How did YOU handle that? What do you think you could do to make sure you can finish your project, read the story, or whatever activity. You get the picture, right OP? You know your kid best and what support they need from you in this particular situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP - using the word "downs" to describe someone with "down syndrome" is considered very offensive to many people.

Thank you so much for letting me know. I had no idea and do not want to offend. I am a horrible speller and didn't want to misspell "syndrome" and took the lazy way out. Next time I will look it up. Thanks again!

[Anonymous]

OP, here. thanks for the advice. Trying to instill empathy. DC did come home saying that the aforementioned kid had been pretending to be sick because kid didn't want to go to school (in a way that DC is understanding that the kid is having a hard time).