Disadvantaged children can hurt achievement of others in their classrooms

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why don't all you whiny MOCO parents move out to Howard County? Many of our schools have hardly any FARMS/Hispanic/Black disadvantaged kids, relative to MOCO. I think you'd be a lot happier with the more homogeneous, upper middle class white student body out here.

DCUM is once again showing itself to be a super-troll zone: the conversation invariably comes back to baiting and/or picking on high-SES or non-minority people (or both), with suggestions that they move away; the implication being that they made a mistake desiring to live in DC in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

There's an element of desperation to this effort to prove that poor kids are dragging everyone down. While I'm not one who's going to put my kid in a failing school to prove a point, I do feel pretty strongly that continued failure--even if it stays isolated on the other side of town or gets pushed out to the suburbs--is going to impact his future. My takeaway from this research about disadvantaged kids is that kids grow into adults who have more disadvantaged kids who . . . drag everyone down.

Give that some thought. This public discourse cannot be limited to "get them out of my child's school."

[Anonymous]

"No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread"

@ 19:33: you don't see your own bias if you believe most posters immediately thought of minorities of any color when they read the title of the thread. Disadvantaged can mean many things. Personally, I thought of kids with special challenges; and certainly didn't think "oh my god, we have to keep THOSE people out!" The mindset this particular person is referring to simply isn't very common in the last few decades, at least it hasn't been in this City, for quite a long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Countries that have over all high achievement focus resources on poor kids. The American system distinguishes itself for how much more money and resources it redirects towards already well off children. Systems based on real estate taxes are going to be inherently unequal. Sure some kids will make it out but a lot of capacity is still squandered because rich people will focus on their already advantaged kids. I probably would also if I were a rich, but from a macro level it sure does not make sense.

Do you have stats/specifics to back this up? Because most of the Asian countries that have high achievement rates don't focus on poor kids. In fact, most of the really poor kids don't go to school (at least from what I've read).

Other countries that have high achievement actually don't have the gaps in wealth and poverty that we have. I'm talking about Scandinavian countries. They also don't have the huge ethnic, racial and cultural differences that we have and very restrictive immigration laws.

Other European countries heavily track the kids. So from a young age, kids are steered in a certain direction.

I don't think you are correct about the American system. In a lot of cases, EXTRA funds are devoted to poor performing schools. But it has been to no avail.

I don't know what the solution is. I don't think segregation is the answer, so OP and some of the other PPs on here strike me as just flat out racist, elitist and bigoted.

I do think that we would be better off if states ran schools instead of counties/districts/cities. If the schools were run at the state level, teachers could be shifted around easier to help alleviate over crowding or talent drain.

But beyond that, I don't know what the solution is.

[Anonymous]

meant "shifted around more easily" instead of easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

There's an element of desperation to this effort to prove that poor kids are dragging everyone down. While I'm not one who's going to put my kid in a failing school to prove a point, I do feel pretty strongly that continued failure--even if it stays isolated on the other side of town or gets pushed out to the suburbs--is going to impact his future. My takeaway from this research about disadvantaged kids is that kids grow into adults who have more disadvantaged kids who . . . drag everyone down.

Give that some thought. This public discourse cannot be limited to "get them out of my child's school."

Who says that the discourse is limited to "get them out of my school"? In fact, I don't think that is even a fair characterization of what is being said. In all the research cited on these threads there is a tipping point where a school becomes a "high poverty" school and requires specialized inputs for the success if the students there. Research also shows that those specialized inputs are not necessarily what kids from more advantages backgrounds need.

For example, even if a high-poverty school started some great programming and convinced me that my child's academic needs would be met, I am completely turned off by the prospect being thrown around requiring longer school days and longer school years for high-poverty schools. I absolutely refuse to sign up for that.

The discourse is really around yes, pleas let's provide extra funding and supports for schools with high numbers of disadvantaged kids. Give it all you've got, try everything to make a difference. You have my tax money and my support. What people are reacting against is some sort of policy level decision to make sure that middle class families are evenly distributed around schools and not allowed to cluster in certain schools--as if THAT is the way to fix inequities. To me it seems like a final refuge of a city educational bureaucracy who is out of ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree. Knee jerk accusations of discrimination and racism get us absolutely nowhere. Especially considering that the AA middle class families in DC make schools choices almost identically to the way white middle class families do. Racism is not an issue here.

+1

But in the vein of "let's face reality," race is very much an issue in this city and I'd say it's concentrated and even exacerbated in the school boundary debate. There have been a whole lot of knees jerking in every direction these days. Sure, we can keep it terms of income but race is embedded in every reference to FARMS, SES, behavior, capabilities and achievement. It may or may not be there with the OOB ruckus, because parents should be concerned about overcrowding; it's certainly an element when people weigh the value of a WOTP school by its OOB percentages.

No one here thought of poor white children as they read the header of this thread. For every "snowflake" insult thrown out, there are many more equally insulting generalizations about low income people.

There's an element of desperation to this effort to prove that poor kids are dragging everyone down. While I'm not one who's going to put my kid in a failing school to prove a point, I do feel pretty strongly that continued failure--even if it stays isolated on the other side of town or gets pushed out to the suburbs--is going to impact his future. My takeaway from this research about disadvantaged kids is that kids grow into adults who have more disadvantaged kids who . . . drag everyone down.

Give that some thought. This public discourse cannot be limited to "get them out of my child's school."

The issue is real and needs to be dealt with one way or another - screaming "you don't like brown faces in your school" only gets in the way of solutions. Frankly it's not about "brown faces" - in any number of places around the US those could easily be white faces as well. It's not about race at all. Take a look at a group of Banneker students, as compared to a group of Ballou students - and you will see that while they are both majority AA, they are worlds apart - there are huge differences in behavior, motivation, drive, ethic, and even in terms of the respect they show each other. And that's what we're talking about here.

What the studies do show is that it is indeed a very real and very serious issue that will propagate and perpetuate from parent to child and from student to student if it's not being recognized and dealt with. It needs to be dealt with early on - prenatal care, info on proper parenting, preschool, and so on. Many people do not have the life skills to manage their own lives, let alone raise children and need to learn these skills. What the studies also show is that a system can be easily overwhelmed. When the critical mass of troubled students exceeds 15 or 20 percent of the whole, the returns rapidly diminish - for ALL students. That's observed reality. How we propose to deal with it in terms of policy is yet another matter.

[Anonymous]

[quote What people are reacting against is some sort of policy level decision to make sure that middle class families are evenly distributed around schools and not allowed to cluster in certain schools--as if THAT is the way to fix inequities. To me it seems like a final refuge of a city educational bureaucracy who is out of ideas.

I've been reading a lot on this forum thanks to the snow. I'm not seeing a link to any official proposal to evenly distribute families. I ask in all seriousness, where is that coming from?

From what I can tell, it's hysteria that's grown out of some op-ed or blog post from someone not even employed by DCPS.

[Anonymous]

The issue is real and needs to be dealt with one way or another - screaming "you don't like brown faces in your school" only gets in the way of solutions. Frankly it's not about "brown faces" - in any number of places around the US those could easily be white faces as well. It's not about race at all. Take a look at a group of Banneker students, as compared to a group of Ballou students - and you will see that while they are both majority AA, they are worlds apart - there are huge differences in behavior, motivation, drive, ethic, and even in terms of the respect they show each other. And that's what we're talking about here.

What the studies do show is that it is indeed a very real and very serious issue that will propagate and perpetuate from parent to child and from student to student if it's not being recognized and dealt with. It needs to be dealt with early on - prenatal care, info on proper parenting, preschool, and so on. Many people do not have the life skills to manage their own lives, let alone raise children and need to learn these skills. What the studies also show is that a system can be easily overwhelmed. When the critical mass of troubled students exceeds 15 or 20 percent of the whole, the returns rapidly diminish - for ALL students. That's observed reality. How we propose to deal with it in terms of policy is yet another matter.

I haven't screamed anything. I've observed that race is very much embedded in the issue of school quality and choice. We're not talking about any number of places around the US, we're talking about Washington, DC.

You've put forward what I think is the most valuable proposal--that change needs to happen before the kids are school aged. But I haven't seen very many other comments actually looking for solutions. It's mostly been about looking for evidence and consensus that having wealthy kids mixing with poor kids is bad for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[quote What people are reacting against is some sort of policy level decision to make sure that middle class families are evenly distributed around schools and not allowed to cluster in certain schools--as if THAT is the way to fix inequities. To me it seems like a final refuge of a city educational bureaucracy who is out of ideas.

I've been reading a lot on this forum thanks to the snow. I'm not seeing a link to any official proposal to evenly distribute families. I ask in all seriousness, where is that coming from?

From what I can tell, it's hysteria that's grown out of some op-ed or blog post from someone not even employed by DCPS.

The suggestion has been that these op-eds were from folks who have served as school consultants and who carry some weight with DCPS. The pushback is in pointing to the actual research and statistics, which shows that simply pushing families out to schools with more disadvantaged students is absolutely not going to work given DC's numbers, and will quite likely cause more harm - and serious harm, and not provide any meaningful benefit to anyone. What may look good to someone on paper could be an utter disaster in practice. If they want to talk boundaries, planning and policy, they will need to dig a lot deeper.

[Anonymous]

DC is considering a weighted lottery and quotas for low income and disadvantaged students to attend higher performing schools. This is being done in other urban school systems around the country. So conceivably, it would be easier for a kid from Anacostia to attend Brent or a Brightwood kid attend Janney.

[Anonymous]

How is that done amid already over-crowded buildings? You wouldn't want to do away with preschool for the kids coming to Brent or Janney from Anacostia but how else to make space for those who already live inside the boundary half or whom don't get slots for pre-school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:yeah, sorry to go all "snowflake" but these pro-discrimination threads have gotten to be way too much for me

Calling "snowflake lady" is the new calling "troll."

[Anonymous]

FWIW: I"m the second poster to this thread and I am snowflake white. SES discrim drives me to distraction.

[Anonymous]

This post is interesting because it seems to have drawn anxious posts from parents in MoCo AND in DC. Both sets of parents seem to think the study applies to their situation. What say you, angry VA parents???